Germans Discussion Thread

[[Armag] diarouga]

It would be a huge buff to Russia, Japan, India, Dutch and Brit however and I'm not sure these civs deserve it.

[Scroogie]

I don't like that idea, since many other civs (France, Spain, Aztecs, Ports, China, Iro) rely on the TP as an eco bonus to compete with the other's civilizations superior economic design (Japan, British, Dutch, India). Nerfing TPs affects basically every MU and makes it therefore very hard to balance. It would make half the civ pool worse on their best maps, and except Germany and Sioux all of them are not unreasonably strong.

[Hazza54321]

Agreed. Imo the cost of tps should be 225 or at least tested. Early tps with almost every civ is pretty strong (thinking france german iro).

[gamevideo113]

Not a huge fan of nerfing TPs altogether but i guess you could increase their building time in the discovery age to nerf early tp only and avoid messing with the rest of the game, and then compensate where necessary.

[bwinner]

Not a huge fan of nerfing TPs altogether but i guess you could increase their building time in the discovery age to nerf early tp only and avoid messing with the rest of the game, and then compensate where necessary.

RIP ottomans

[Kaiserklein]

Ofc the TP xp income deserves a nerf. Changing the cost is less elegant since it makes it harder to squeeze TPs in your build order

[Rikikipu]

On Mendocino, each TP produces 25% less XP (imagine how huge a -25% nerf is). And yet Germany is still played there, and this map doesn't seem to provide too much buff to civs that don't rely on TP either. This has been in front of our eyes for 2 years now, and I think it has worked quite well since Mendocino is probably one of the map with the most options for civ diversity (and I really don't say that because I made the map). Even more, we can conclude from that, that even nerfing tps by -25%, they are still very viable.

[Kaiserklein]

It does feel sad to go age 1 tp on mendocino haha

[Garja]

btw I just checked. Mendocino TP is 1.17 xp/sec, Arkansas TP is 1.25 xp/sec. It isn't too much of a difference?

[Rikikipu]

To be honest, I didn't do the stats myself, I've just checked the work that @lordraphael did on Tps:
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... no#p161010

From this source I got:
- Mendocino: 92xp/tp/min
- Arkansas: 115xp/tp/min

92/115 = 0.8, so TP produces on Mendocino 80% from what they produce on Arkansas

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah I'm quite sure there's a significant difference. You feel it a lot when going for builds that involve shipping 2 cards in age 1 (brit 3v VC, spain 3v atp, otto 3v silk road, etc) as you usually don't have a shipment ready upon colo, or barely.

[Riotcoke]

I'd like a change to the power of tps, especially with stagecoach having a tp line is far too powerful compared to investment. Although i might be completely wrong.

[Kaiserklein]

Stagecoach should be a relatively cheap investment since it's risky. You need a military presence on the map to defend the line, while a regular boom is usually in your base with defender's advantage. And if you lose the control of the line, it's twice as bad as losing e.g some vils, since your opponent gets to steal the stagecoach tps.

Only problem is match ups where one civ gets to stagecoach for free, or maps with extra safe stagecoach.

[Goodspeed]

TPs are good for the game. Balance it around them, for the love of all that is holy.

[Garja]

To be honest, I didn't do the stats myself, I've just checked the work that @lordraphael did on Tps:
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... no#p161010

From this source I got:
- Mendocino: 92xp/tp/min
- Arkansas: 115xp/tp/min

92/115 = 0.8, so TP produces on Mendocino 80% from what they produce on Arkansas

Please test it again, perhaps without vsync. On multiplayer -> lan, without vsync it should be 1.17 xp/sec for mendocino and 1.25 xp/sec for arkansas. Obvisouly considering only 1 TP, as number of TPs doesn't really matter for the xp/sec.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

Jaegers and manchus are too strong. Not the card.

20% on one specific type of unit isn't op, you have the same for jans and strelets for example. If that's op, then we need to nerf cav combat for some civs like dutch russia or otto, which affects every single cav unit, including mams, manchus, etc, on top of their regular cav.

This.

Jaegers 40% is the thing that makes them a bit too strong. For manchus I'd say no stat is actually unusual, just CA unit type is nice in general.
20% on a single unit type is the norm. However mercs have higher base stats so their design becomes even more extreme. Also it's 20% on single unit type but many difference units in practice.
Also 13 jaegers is 600g extra to the 10 jaegers card. Germans bonus is supposed to be 450 res in fortress age.

Yeah 12 jaegers would make sense for this.

Along with a Jäger cost nerf – correct.

[zoom]

France had -100f on EP 2 (and then reverted on EP 3).

-100f is a bad change, for French. It's an even worse change, for Germans, since it'd make them even slower. Germans doesn't have the same margins as French does, in the early game.

[zoom]

From what i've seen, most people dislike the amount of free Uhlans Germany gets and dislike the uhlan nerf, because these 10hp work magic in the number of hits needed to kill for various common units, making their effective combat much weaker than a measly 5% hp nerf would suggest. So i'm wondering if we can do both, buff uhlans and nerf the free mass Germany gets. Some people advocate for only one uhlan in colonial and two in fortress, but i find that a bit drastic, compromising the civ bonus and tbh, what will one uhlan do in colonial? Scout? Maybe a Uhlan rework is better, which could go along the lines of this:

Reduce Uhlans HP to 165 (so Hussars don't perfect-kill them anymore, and colonial Musks need only one less shot to kill them, they also die in the same amount of hits vs pikes)
Reduce Uhlan Attack to 34. This is a 15% HP reduction and 10% Attack reduction. They now kill Hussars in 10 hits instead of 9. They still kill villagers in the same number of hits.
Reduce Uhlan cost to 40f 90c (or something along of this) and reduce train time from 35seconds to 31.
Vet Uhlans and normal Uhlans are still killed in 4hits by Goons, only with 190hp was it 5hit for Vet-Uhlans.

This now means that the free Uhlans are weaker, but also a lot more affordable and faster to make, because of their increase in cost-effectiveness. Their fighting capability does not diminish significantly, only when mixed units are fighting will there be a big difference, meaning the big uhlan swarm on top of your army is weaker, but not so much the skillfully manouvered uhlan that is trying to trap a Hussar.

I wouldn't nerf the SW-shipments, since extra economy for Germans is fair, since they need to chop more for popspace (if they want to make use of the Uhlans). So in a way, this Uhlan-rework would slightly nerf the German economy too, since now they need even more popspace for the same power-level.

For the crate starts, i think only 300f 200w is op, since for 200f 200w the macro is quite tight (remember France without food crate?). So removing the 300f 200w start would be an idea. This way early tp is still a thing, but no ez-gg FF without seriously good treasures. Maybe even make 100f 200w start a thing as the only 200w start, but i'm unsure here.

In the lategame, this now obvioulsy means Uhlans are much, much weaker since their base stats are lower, making the upgrades worse and they are even more pop-inefficient. To counteract that, Lippizaner-Cav (the age4 upgrade) could now reduce the popspace for uhlans to 1. Stats would need to be adjusted accordingly, so maybe Lippizaner Cav only gives 10%hp and atk instead of 20% like right now (maybe i'm wrong with the numbers here). I could have sworn, some long time ago when i was a little kid the french age4 curassier-cost-reduction did the same from 2 to 3, did that get nerfed at some point or am i just misremembering? xD

Please tell me what you think about these suggestions. :) Btw, the numbers are just an idea to give a direction.

I think it's too (and unnecessarily) drastic a change. Also, I think adjusting crate starts is worth considering. I know I've been in favor of it for the better part of this decade.

[zoom]

30 RR for jaegar and be done with it. could also subtract 1 jaegar from the ger merc shipment i guess

Rather not nerf any other Jäger shipments. They don't seem overviable, to me.

[Goodspeed]

-100f means Germans will start with 1 food crate about half the time, right? That means it might be hard to even get the food for the second vill on time, depending on the hunt situation.

[zoom]

Agreed. Imo the cost of tps should be 225 or at least tested. Early tps with almost every civ is pretty strong (thinking france german iro).

I don't think TPs are too accessible (apart from wood starts, possibly), but I do think they are a tad on the strong side. If nerfing them, either I would decrease deliveries (say, by 10%), or halve or remove their build bounty.

[zoom]

btw I just checked. Mendocino TP is 1.17 xp/sec, Arkansas TP is 1.25 xp/sec. It isn't too much of a difference?

Some variance is to be tolerated. That seems acceptable to me.

[zoom]

To be honest, I didn't do the stats myself, I've just checked the work that @lordraphael did on Tps:
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... no#p161010

From this source I got:
- Mendocino: 92xp/tp/min
- Arkansas: 115xp/tp/min

92/115 = 0.8, so TP produces on Mendocino 80% from what they produce on Arkansas

That's a bit extreme, though.

[Garja]

btw I just checked. Mendocino TP is 1.17 xp/sec, Arkansas TP is 1.25 xp/sec. It isn't too much of a difference?

Some variance is to be tolerated. That seems acceptable to me.

both lines are straight and even with +-1 sec in the calculation should return about the same result

[Scroogie]

Agreed. Imo the cost of tps should be 225 or at least tested. Early tps with almost every civ is pretty strong (thinking france german iro).

I don't think TPs are too accessible (apart from wood starts, possibly), but I do think they are a tad on the strong side. If nerfing them, either I would decrease deliveries (say, by 10%), or halve or remove their build bounty.

What's a build bounty?