Germans Discussion Thread

[momuuu]

Germany is not UP if you wouldn't pick them in tournament though, just maybe a tiny bit weak. You just have to stop doing some mega uhlan age 2 play because that doesnt work.

[Kaiserklein]

Well ryan said germany is "fine". For me a fine civ is a civ you can pick in tourney, so there's a contradiction here. If you wouldn't ever pick germany, out of 105 mus, because another civ would always do a better job instead, then it's not a fine civ sorry. It's a useless civ.
About age 2 it depends on the match up. Doesn't really matter anyway.

[Garja]

Well in tourney you're gonna use like 5 civs max anyway, for other reasons that not being a competitive civ. At the end of the day Germans aren't even bad at the moment and don't even require different strat than before. Just need to be more careful with ulhans because don't shit on other cav anymore. Also currently civs like Dutch and Ports are unfairly too strong so they make Germans look worse than what they are.
That said ulhan nerf is still controversial.

[Kaiserklein]

You do have to play differently, basically your age 3 composition is changed a bit. Also in some match ups you don't play colonial the same way, for example vs russia I used to be able to hold pressure with just uhlans + mm and/or 8 bows while now you basically need to bow pike
Yeah you only use 5 civs max so one could say that germany just isn't top 5, but you also have to consider the match ups. If your opponent locks in a given civ, and you can counterpick, but would never pick ger because they're never a good pick, I think the civ kinda sucks.

[Jaeger]

How about keeping hp nerf but buffing rr by 5% or something?

[Dsy]

German got 5% hp nerf.
If it seems UP that can be only cause other civs got overbuffed, not german nerfed.

[Papist]

You do have to play differently, basically your age 3 composition is changed a bit. Also in some match ups you don't play colonial the same way, for example vs russia I used to be able to hold pressure with just uhlans + mm and/or 8 bows while now you basically need to bow pike
Yeah you only use 5 civs max so one could say that germany just isn't top 5, but you also have to consider the match ups. If your opponent locks in a given civ, and you can counterpick, but would never pick ger because they're never a good pick, I think the civ kinda sucks.

Why SHOULD 14 units and a couple of free cav be able to hold a full rush? Doesn't that seem a bit broken to you?

Why is it that a civ's ability to piss away 2200 resources consequence-free is the metric for how good it is?

[Kaiserklein]

Why SHOULD 14 units and a couple of free cav be able to hold a full rush? Doesn't that seem a bit broken to you?

1- Never said it should be the case, I just explained how things changed.
2- It wasn't the case anyway. You could hold with cav + mm/bows if russia pressured you without really rushing hard. If russia committed to a "full rush", you had to mix infantry anyway, or even stay colo (you would still win the match up though, obviously).
3- Fyi, civs like ports or france can defend even more easily. Huss are actually much better vs russia than uhlans, also musks can be useful, and france has cdbs/ports has another tc. Even spain doing a semi ff would probs hold a russian rush more easily than germany used to, with tower huss and dogs. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying the MU was easier for those civs than for ger ; ger still won the mu easily once in fortress. Just saying it doesn't defend better in colo. So is germany broken in this regard... Or is it the other way around, broken russia that used to get rekt by any cav semi civ ? Think about it.

Why is it that a civ's ability to piss away 2200 resources consequence-free is the metric for how good it is?

Aging up is never consequence-free. Not sure what you're talking about.

[Hazza54321]

You do have to play differently, basically your age 3 composition is changed a bit. Also in some match ups you don't play colonial the same way, for example vs russia I used to be able to hold pressure with just uhlans + mm and/or 8 bows while now you basically need to bow pike
Yeah you only use 5 civs max so one could say that germany just isn't top 5, but you also have to consider the match ups. If your opponent locks in a given civ, and you can counterpick, but would never pick ger because they're never a good pick, I think the civ kinda sucks.

Why SHOULD 14 units and a couple of free cav be able to hold a full rush? Doesn't that seem a bit broken to you?

Why is it that a civ's ability to piss away 2200 resources consequence-free is the metric for how good it is?

Theres a reason why a full rush sucks in the current meta

[Zhanson10]

told u uhlans were already paper and now they suck

[sirmusket]

told u uhlans were already paper and now they suck

uhlans were one of best cav unit on RE, and easily best age 2 cav for raiding, i wouldnt say they "suck" now seeing as there not steppe riders, but they arent great.

[Zhanson10]

told u uhlans were already paper and now they suck

uhlans were one of best cav unit on RE, and easily best age 2 cav for raiding, i wouldnt say they "suck" now seeing as there not steppe riders, but they arent great.

cav are best for tanking and uhlans cant tank

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, uhlans were situational : they did a better job at killing other cav and melee units generally speaking, and also at raiding, but they didn't tank at range and sucked at snaring ranged units, and got kited hard. Now they're bad at both, except raiding

[zoom]

I don't see how Uhlans are any worse at snaring ranged units than other heavy cavalry. In fact, as long as you have more than a few units, they seem better at it because they do it just as well, while also cutting down their target significantly faster. The Uhlan's superior attack also carries a great tactical advantage, allowing it to seize upon more engagement opportunities at lower risk than cavalry with lower speed or attack, which require a greater margin.

I also think the more glaring yet herein neglected benefits of having more ranged resistance and causing more overkill are important.

[Kaiserklein]

No. If you have less hp and you get kited, you will die faster while running and doing no damage.
Try to snare a group of 15 musks with 5 uhlans for example. You'll just die really fast. Every volley will kill a uhlan and if musks are ever able to attack your uhlans in melee mode they will just almost instantly die.
Now send sth like 4 huss to snare the 15 musks. They'll just last longer, while your range units will be able to catch up and shoot at the musks.
Often, the role of your cav is not to deal damage, but to snare/trap units. It's usually what happens in colonial age, because cav is not very good at killing musk/cav, but they can snare musks.
Another example, go try and mm trap sepoys that 4-hit your uhlans in melee mode, while they would 8-hit hussars. What will happen is your uhlans are just going to drop so fast that it won't even be a mm trap but just a massacre, and once he killed your cav he can just run or kill the mm. It really doesn't happen that way with huss... Huss have so much hp that they can even mm trap dops lol.

Anyway, you know people usually send cav hp before cv attack because it's a better card, right ? Well that's the same thing, usually for cav, hp matters more than attack. Cav are tanks, not damage dealers.

[Darwin_]

I know this is a very late (and long) response but what the hell.

I think that Kaiser's point makes a lot of sense. The HP nerf to uhlans seemed to be targeted at mainly balancing their 2nd age, which was way too good considering how good their eco was and how few resources had to actually be invested in it. They were extremely strong because they could play very economically in age 2, passively even, but were still dictating the pace of the game, seemingly regardless of the matchup. Then once they got into age 3, they just took the game over, and their opponents were forced to adapt, almost never the way around. The HP nerf changed their dominance in age 2 by nerfing their strength against hussars which was disproportionately good. However, in age 3, this really hurt Uhlans way more than it should, because by that point, they didnt just have 10 fewer hp, they had 12 less, which is actually significant. It means that veteran uhlans are killed by veteran skirmishers and dragoons over 5% faster. They were not too strong against ranged infantry. In fact, they were arguably a fair bit worse than hussars in this regard.

Also, their body-blocking ability was already kinda shabby, but they were still nerfed in this regard. Now, I know that the design of the uhlan is not tailored for body-blocking, that much is fact. However, we would not be complaining if Germany actually had a good age 3 counter-cavalry unit. WW's are not very good, and dopps, while quite effective against cavalry, are too slow and get killed quickly by skirmishers. Uhlans loose, again, 5% faster against all hand cav. That means that uhlans have less time to do damage, but that the skirms die faster as well. The hp nerf's effect seems to spiral.

Personally, I think that germany should just get fixed 300f 100w start and a buff to their shipment rate (which is 10% slower than normal btw), but I doubt that anyone will agree with that.

For changes that people would actually like, I think Uhlans could still get the -10hp nerf, but with a buff to the Ranged Resist, bringing it up to 40% (from 30%). I think that War Wagons could also get some sort of stats buff, though I am not sure in what area. I could also see normal uhlans, but slightly nerfed settler wagon gather rate. I am not sure what to do with them honestly.

I play Germany here and there on TAD and the EP, have watched germany games a lot, and played them extensively on Nilla. Everytime I play them or watch them, I am always perplexed in some way or another. They seem to just vary so much from start to start, from map to map, and from matchup to matchup, regardless of the game. If they get a 300f 200w start on a TP map like hudson bay or high plains, they seem to be unbeatable in most matchups. But then when they are playing against france/brits on a map like bengal or pampas sierra on a 200f 100w 100c start, they feel awkward, weak, and slow. To me, they seem like one of the civs that cant be balanced in isolation: changes need to be made to other civs before changes can be made to Germany I think.

[pecelot]

The nerf is pretty much the same in age 3 as it is in age 2, it takes one less shot to kill them. I don't really get the suggested RR buff, it would make their age 2 stronger, which you pointed out that that was the case before and it got rightfully nerfed, as many people defend with muskets against early uhlan pressure.

[Kaiserklein]

Not like ger age 2 was op before... If anything, you should nerf their age 3

[Darwin_]

The nerf is pretty much the same in age 3 as it is in age 2, it takes one less shot to kill them. I don't really get the suggested RR buff, it would make their age 2 stronger, which you pointed out that that was the case before and it got rightfully nerfed, as many people defend with muskets against early uhlan pressure.

The rr buff would go along with the HP nerf, meaning that they would take the same number of shots from a musk/ranged infantry to die, but still one fewer hit from a hussar. It weakens them against hand cav, but keeps them the same against ranged infantry. Even with 180hp and 30% rr, they take the same number of shots from a musk to die in age 2, but take one fewer in age 3.

German age 2 play is weak, but their age 2 presence in their semi-ff was much too good, considering the number of resources you had to invest into it.

[Atomiswave]

Guys, it its just 5%.....

[Hazza54321]

Meh kaisers just a bad player

[AraGun]

Meh kaisers just a bad player

Strange coming from kaiser´s errand boy.

[Hazza54321]

Meh kaisers just a bad player

Strange coming from kaiser´s errand boy.

Dont even talk to me you 36 year old virgin

[deleted_user0]

Meh kaisers just a bad player

Oh shit, hazza is a BB now, so here is the mandatory smacktalk. After soulja 3-0, its time for kaiser to fall?

[Darwin_]

Hazzarov's ego OP









JK JK