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Italy Garja
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17 May 2017, 10:05

It does cause that's the minimum impactful change you can make. Any less than that is useless (not impactful), anything more is refused cuz 100f is apparently too much.
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United States of America Darwin_
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17 May 2017, 15:27

+50 food in bank or +1 coin crate would definitely have an effect and not be useless and not overpowered.
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Italy Garja
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17 May 2017, 15:43

50f is useless. It is like saying that when Russia gets a 40f treasure they get significantly better. It is jus too small of a boost to matter. You can gain or lose about 30f just depending on how well you herd your first hunt. And that's exaxtly the role of treasures and distances. Starting resources work in batches of 100.
100g can definitely be relevant but totally disconnected with any logic. Ask yourself again why do you want to change the civ in the first place. A random extra gold for Russia simply isnt backed up by any solid reason. It is just to give them something for the sake of it. And it has to discount the awkardness of having 200g starts. There is a logic in Russia and Port crates: less vills = more food crates and viceversa. It is supposed to standardize age up times. The discretion of the patcher is then to decide whether you want those civs to age a bit earlier or later (e.g. some people dont like Russia idle time or I personally think Ports should age with 13v np). Cant randomly introduce a new buff without a sound logic that is also coherent with how the civ was designed.
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United States of America Darwin_
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17 May 2017, 16:18

I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out. +1 coin crate means that they wont have to gather as much coin in transition, leading to them having to cut fewer villagers to maintain musk production in the early game, or be able to get steel traps sooner because they just have the extra resources. Also, what you are saying about civilization design makes no sense and shows a fair bit of your own bias. If the crate and villager starts were meant to standardize age times, then why does Germany age later than ports and otto age earlier than russia? Adding 50 food to their bank would standardize their age times, which seems to be something you want though I cant really tell. I don't get how giving russia a few more resources in the early game is "incoherent with civ design".
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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Poland pecelot
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17 May 2017, 17:50

Darwin_ wrote:I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out.

It can really add like 15 food to your count in total as Russia, which has a very strict age-up times due to settler batches. I'm pretyt sure it wouldn't change anything whatsoever.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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17 May 2017, 17:57

pecelot wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out.

It can really add like 15 food to your count in total as Russia, which has a very strict age-up times due to settler batches. I'm pretyt sure it wouldn't change anything whatsoever.


I would take any help I can get with Russia, especially when playing vs France or Germany.
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Poland pecelot
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17 May 2017, 18:01

It's not unusual to have unfavourable match-ups, I'd honestly trust better players who claim that Russia is in a more-or-less-fine spot, without a direct need for a buff.
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United States of America Darwin_
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17 May 2017, 18:09

pecelot wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out.

It can really add like 15 food to your count in total as Russia, which has a very strict age-up times due to settler batches. I'm pretyt sure it wouldn't change anything whatsoever.

How does adding 50 food only add 15?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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17 May 2017, 18:11

In previous ep iteration Russia was good to the point of beating France. Currently I find that impossible, except in cases where French player is much lower PR than Russian one.
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Poland pecelot
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17 May 2017, 19:09

Darwin_ wrote:
pecelot wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out.

It can really add like 15 food to your count in total as Russia, which has a very strict age-up times due to settler batches. I'm pretyt sure it wouldn't change anything whatsoever.

How does adding 50 food only add 15?

I referred to your point how getting 3 vills sooner by a couple of seconds adds up.

@Atomiswave , it is also because France was buffed...
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Italy Garja
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17 May 2017, 21:35

Darwin_ wrote:I really dont understand your logic. The change isnt just for the sake of changing them. Extra 50f in bank means their first vill batch gets queued sooner and that they have more resources after the last vill batch comes out. +1 coin crate means that they wont have to gather as much coin in transition, leading to them having to cut fewer villagers to maintain musk production in the early game, or be able to get steel traps sooner because they just have the extra resources. Also, what you are saying about civilization design makes no sense and shows a fair bit of your own bias. If the crate and villager starts were meant to standardize age times, then why does Germany age later than ports and otto age earlier than russia? Adding 50 food to their bank would standardize their age times, which seems to be something you want though I cant really tell. I don't get how giving russia a few more resources in the early game is "incoherent with civ design".

I think you're ignoring the concept of "cost of the change". There is a more or less objective threshold that classify a change as relevant or not. 50f is it isimply not enough to justify touching the civ. I mean by your logic you gain 1 second in queing the first batch. 1 fucking second. To put it in perspective, in 99,99% of games you lose 1 second somewhere else in age1 so the change is completely nullified by human error. At the same time even the smallest treasures or just human ability can give the same benefit. Not to mention this game supposedly have differences from game to game (e.g object positioning like hunts or crates or w/e) so that the age up time doesn't even have to be tight like you're assuming for granted here.

100g is mostly for market (clearly a strictly superior option than saving it for units) but in any case it is a random change decided by the patcher based on questionable assesment of the civ in the contingent meta. What if meta changes and Russia is not weak anymore? Your change just becomes useless. There are simply too many question marks to approve the change. You need to be sure the civ needs a buff and then you need to know exactly what you want to buff, while also keeping thing as similar as possible to the original state. The fact that Russia would randomly get 200g starts (no civ but Dutch get it) is enough of a "cost" to simply discard the change.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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17 May 2017, 22:24

Garja wrote:50f is it is simply not enough to justify touching the civ.
Indeed, if 'balancing' a civ takes such a small change then the civ is already fine.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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17 May 2017, 22:42

Goodspeed wrote:
Garja wrote:50f is it is simply not enough to justify touching the civ.
Indeed, if 'balancing' a civ takes such a small change then the civ is already fine.


What about 50f and 50c combo, or some other combination with wood.
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Italy Garja
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17 May 2017, 22:44

What about just play the civ as it is.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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18 May 2017, 04:57

:banana:
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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Finland somppukunkku
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18 May 2017, 13:36

Nobody played it this tournament. Not even me or hazza. Simply because it's too weak and losing quite every match up. Shame.
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Italy Garja
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18 May 2017, 13:56

I think someone good should try new creative approaches with very greedy buids (17v and early TP, market or ATP builds, etc.) and reactionary playstyle and see how they work in the current meta. This atleast vs semi ff civs. Vs colo civs I think just refined standard play is enough (except vs India I guess).
Russia kinda needs 3-4 completely different strats depending on map and MU. If after mastering allof them they are still weak then maybe 100f is legit.
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Poland pecelot
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18 May 2017, 14:02

somppukunkku wrote:Nobody played it this tournament. Not even me or hazza. Simply because it's too weak and losing quite every match up. Shame.

Kaiser, Raphael? both won
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Finland somppukunkku
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18 May 2017, 14:11

pecelot wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Nobody played it this tournament. Not even me or hazza. Simply because it's too weak and losing quite every match up. Shame.

Kaiser, Raphael? both won

Tbh because soldier doesn't know many civs. Raphael game I didn't see. The problem is that you never pick Russia as a first pick because of hard counters. If your opponent first picks brit then they are maybe usable but thats quite rare.
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Poland pecelot
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18 May 2017, 14:23

Well, that's the case with many civs, right? Japan, Spain etc.
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No Flag umeu
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19 May 2017, 08:06

Garja wrote:What about just play the civ as it is.


yes, why didn't we do that on re? :uglylol:
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19 May 2017, 08:13

somppukunkku wrote:
pecelot wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Nobody played it this tournament. Not even me or hazza. Simply because it's too weak and losing quite every match up. Shame.

Kaiser, Raphael? both won

Tbh because soldier doesn't know many civs. Raphael game I didn't see. The problem is that you never pick Russia as a first pick because of hard counters. If your opponent first picks brit then they are maybe usable but thats quite rare.


russia is a solid pick vs japan and china tbh. its also good against dutch, it even won that mu on last patch, and dutch is weaker now (though so is russia), but even on nilla that was quite a tough mu and russia was worse there and dutch better. russia is also fine vs ports imo, with some creative play (cossack opening for example). russia is also atleast on par with current iro, perhaps even wins the mu. the mu vs brits is atleast even as well, but the way most people play it, i think its probs in russias favor.

russia may not be top civ, but theyre definitely not in a bad spot. and ye ur right about counter civs, but that's true for a few other civs as well while they may still be strong. for example brits, which may very well be tier 1 on this patch still has a few hard counters (india, imo sioux on this patch, iro and otto still probably) that make it risky to pick on many maps (though it obviously depends on the map). russia is just a very specific civ that makes them good as a counter civ but not as great as a first pick. same for sioux, i think theyre top tier atm if not for the fact that a few civs just counter them so hard (india, germany, otto, ports mostly) you cant ever pick them first.
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Germany yemshi
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19 May 2017, 08:39

Like Russia is the only civ that doesn't care about the MU, whether it is a land/sea/TP/livestock/high res/low rer/wallable/etc. map.
They do just fine even though they might lose a few times.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 May 2017, 13:43

500f start is honestly just crap, fixed 600f sounds good to me, all you guys saying +50f is a really small change are just flat out wrong, 255vills (+45f in age 1 as you guys see it) was a massive deal that changed the civ from being near bottom to near top
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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25 May 2017, 13:49

was a massive deal that changed the civ from being near bottom to near top
Lol

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