Russians Discussion Thread

[gamevideo113]

Well it is quite controversial.
Some people (me included) believe that Russia is currently too strong, and that RE Russia would be totally fine.
I wish the 17v age up was viable but it's not, and it's very hard to buff it without buffing the 14v age up. With that change, people would just go for the same rush strat and it would be stronger...

What if you make russia vill batch 280 /285 food but also decrease the training time? You would have even less food at 2:40, making the 17v age up a lot more efficient because you would have the time to gather all you need anyway before 3:15.
I mean, vills training in 45 seconds helps both options, but 285f batch only hurts the 14v age up.

[Goodspeed]

You could decrease train time and simply remove a food crate.

[gamevideo113]

Take away one food crate if the scaling of 45s batch isn't too strong. If the scaling is improved too much i think 285f is a better solution

[zoom]

You could decrease train time and simply remove a food crate.

Wouldn't that: 1. Be horribly difficult to approximate, correctly? 2. Necessarily result in the civilization scaling incredibly well but starting out terribly weak, to a point that would make it Japanese 3.0?

In that case, maybe increasing cost and reducing train time, slightly, would be more practical. Otherwise, I think that nerfing Cossack ranged resistance were a good compensation for the 5% Settler-batch train-time buff.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well it is quite controversial.
Some people (me included) believe that Russia is currently too strong, and that RE Russia would be totally fine.
I wish the 17v age up was viable but it's not, and it's very hard to buff it without buffing the 14v age up. With that change, people would just go for the same rush strat and it would be stronger...

What if you make russia vill batch 280 /285 food but also decrease the training time? You would have even less food at 2:40, making the 17v age up a lot more efficient because you would have the time to gather all you need anyway before 3:15.
I mean, vills training in 45 seconds helps both options, but 285f batch only hurts the 14v age up.

That would be a nerf to Russia but it would indeed make 17v age up more viable.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You could decrease train time and simply remove a food crate.

Wouldn't that: 1. Be horribly difficult to approximate, correctly? 2. Necessarily result in the civilization scaling incredibly well but starting out terribly weak, to a point that would make it Japanese 3.0?

In that case, maybe increasing cost and reducing train time, slightly, would be more practical. Otherwise, I think that nerfing Cossack ranged resistance were a good compensation for the 5% Settler-batch train-time buff.

Nerfing cosack RR ? That's so random lol

[Hazza54321]

Dont nerf russia lol

[gamevideo113]

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds. (5 seconds reduction)

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling (yes, this is NOT a NERF, it’s much more appropriate to call it a BUFF), but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

[[Armag] diarouga]

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds.

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling, but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

It's a slight nerf to Russia (because the new 17v age up won't be viable in my opinion and you age later + have to delay your military batches coz vills are more expensive), but it's acceptable.
I'd be fine with such a change, why would you do that though ?
Let's be honest, it's barely going to change the game, and it's going to make the EP change list longer (which is an issue imo).

Also I guess you can see what people mean when they say that the current EP process is too frustrating. We need to have 1 page balance discussions to "fix" a change, and we still have 20+ changes to fix in Zoi's list.
So it takes a crazy amount of time to get a balanced EP while these changes aren't even necessary.

[dansil92]

I'm of the opinion that russia is perfectly fine balance-wise except on those particularly troublesome low res no tp small maps. There's not really much of a way to fix that without over-nerfing them on more 'ep-normal' maps. The only changes i could imagine would be
A. A small nerf to blockhouse hp
B. Slightly slower training (3-5 seconds) on cossacks

Anything else, especially around villager nonsense, is going to be dangerous territory

Additionally i still maintain that mathematically, russian halbs are less cost effective rather than more cost effective and could use a reduction in the russian weakening penalty, as they are weakened off of veteran stats rather than colonial stats.

[gamevideo113]

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds.

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling, but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

It's a slight nerf to Russia (because the new 17v age up won't be viable in my opinion and you age later + have to delay your military batches coz vills are more expensive), but it's acceptable.
I'd be fine with such a change, why would you do that though ?
Let's be honest, it's barely going to change the game, and it's going to make the EP change list longer (which is an issue imo).

It makes the 17v age up 20 seconds quicker (imo it makes the difference from unviable and viable), while leaving the 14v age up untouched.
Yes, affording vills and batches will be slightly harder but the economy will be slightly stronger. It’s likely that these will even themselves out.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm of the opinion that russia is perfectly fine balance-wise except on those particularly troublesome low res no tp small maps. There's not really much of a way to fix that without over-nerfing them on more 'ep-normal' maps. The only changes i could imagine would be
A. A small nerf to blockhouse hp
B. Slightly slower training (3-5 seconds) on cossacks

Anything else, especially around villager nonsense, is going to be dangerous territory

Additionally i still maintain that mathematically, russian halbs are less cost effective rather than more cost effective and could use a reduction in the russian weakening penalty, as they are weakened off of veteran stats rather than colonial stats.

Both of these changes will affect Russia on TP maps actually.
A. On TP maps, you usually go for 1 BH+1 TP (and add the 2nd bh later), while you go for 2 BH on no TP maps. Thus, it will make Russia much weaker to age 2 timing on TP maps, while it's not going to change much on no TP maps because 2 BH + army would still be enough to hold, even with lower HPs.
B. Not sure how slower training cossacks nerfs Russia more on no TP maps than it does on TP maps. If anying, I'd say that you need more coss on TP maps because your opponents will reach age 3 sooner and get skirms/falcs.

I do agree to say that the villager changes are dangerous territory, that's what the past showed us.

[gamevideo113]

Just put more hunts on no TP maps

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Just put more hunts on no TP maps

This solve most balance problems probably.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds.

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling, but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

It's a slight nerf to Russia (because the new 17v age up won't be viable in my opinion and you age later + have to delay your military batches coz vills are more expensive), but it's acceptable.
I'd be fine with such a change, why would you do that though ?
Let's be honest, it's barely going to change the game, and it's going to make the EP change list longer (which is an issue imo).

It makes the 17v age up 20 seconds quicker (imo it makes the difference from unviable and viable), while leaving the 14v age up untouched.
Yes, affording vills and batches will be slightly harder but the economy will be slightly stronger. It’s likely that these will even themselves out.

Ah lol, didn't see that you wanted to reduce the batches by 8sec lol, I thought it was still 3.
Well then it's just too big of a change lol. And it might well make 17v age up too strong.

It's also going to make Russia too strong in some MUs. Think about brit vs Russia, what are you going to do now as Brit ? The russian rush will be delayed by 40 sec but Russia will have an insane scaling and you won't be able to win in late colonial.
Probably the same with water boom.

[gamevideo113]

Show hidden quotes

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds.

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling, but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

It's a slight nerf to Russia (because the new 17v age up won't be viable in my opinion and you age later + have to delay your military batches coz vills are more expensive), but it's acceptable.
I'd be fine with such a change, why would you do that though ?
Let's be honest, it's barely going to change the game, and it's going to make the EP change list longer (which is an issue imo).

It makes the 17v age up 20 seconds quicker (imo it makes the difference from unviable and viable), while leaving the 14v age up untouched.
Yes, affording vills and batches will be slightly harder but the economy will be slightly stronger. It’s likely that these will even themselves out.

Ah lol, didn't see that you wanted to reduce the batches by 8sec lol, I thought it was still 3.
Well then it's just too big of a change lol. And it might well make 17v age up too strong.

It's also going to make Russia too strong in some MUs. Think about brit vs Russia, what are you going to do now as Brit ? The russian rush will be delayed by 40 sec but Russia will have an insane scaling and you won't be able to win in late colonial.
Probably the same with water boom.

No, it’s 5 seconds, not 8.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just put more hunts on no TP maps

That's a good improvement.
On low hunt no TP maps, only Russia and India are viable.
On high hunt no TP maps (like Pampas), Dutch, Brit and Japan become viable. That's still only 5 civs, which is acceptable in a tournament game, but not great either.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

I did a quick check and the training time of the batch is in fact 53 seconds, not 50, which makes new testing necessary. Reducing the training time to 45s means decreasing the training time by 8 seconds which sounds like a lot, and probably is a bit too much. So i’ll do some maths with 48 seconds.

On RE (53 seconds per batch), without any treasures, with 5 food crates, i had these results:
-14v age up possible at 3.05 with 800f in the bank, with some tc idle time. Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up possible at 3:45 with 982f in the bank, just as the last 3 vills pop out.

Assuming we changed the cost of the batch to 285 and the training time to 48 seconds:
-14v age up would be possible no sooner than 2:36, while keeping into consideration that you’d probably reach 800f at 3:06/3:08 (according to my calculations). Earlier with treasures or a food start.
-17v age up would be possible at 3:25 with ~982-(15x4)+[0.84x(5+10+15)x3]=997f in the bank —>(actually it’s more likely to be a little less because i didn’t consider the walking time from the tc to the herd).

I think ultimately what we need to look out for is the russian scaling, while fixing the design of their opening.
Clearly settlers being trained more quickly implies better scaling, but:
-the fact that they are more expensive and train more quickly alone implies that a higher food income is required, which increases the likelyhood of having some tc idle time, negating the scaling boost.
-the cost of ruskets has been increased.
-we can look into other solutions, should russia become too strong in the long run.

@[Armag] diarouga @zoom

It's a slight nerf to Russia (because the new 17v age up won't be viable in my opinion and you age later + have to delay your military batches coz vills are more expensive), but it's acceptable.
I'd be fine with such a change, why would you do that though ?
Let's be honest, it's barely going to change the game, and it's going to make the EP change list longer (which is an issue imo).

It makes the 17v age up 20 seconds quicker (imo it makes the difference from unviable and viable), while leaving the 14v age up untouched.
Yes, affording vills and batches will be slightly harder but the economy will be slightly stronger. It’s likely that these will even themselves out.

Ah lol, didn't see that you wanted to reduce the batches by 8sec lol, I thought it was still 3.
Well then it's just too big of a change lol. And it might well make 17v age up too strong.

It's also going to make Russia too strong in some MUs. Think about brit vs Russia, what are you going to do now as Brit ? The russian rush will be delayed by 40 sec but Russia will have an insane scaling and you won't be able to win in late colonial.
Probably the same with water boom.

No, it’s 5 seconds, not 8.

I meant 5 seconds yea, I mistyped. The change is just too big. It would make 17v age up viable for sure, but at what cost ?
At this point, we have a good balance, and if a change threatens balance, we shouldn't even consider it.

[gamevideo113]

It’s the only way to make russia less repetitive.
We have two alternatives:
-including the change in the beta and testing it (i honestly think it’s not gonna break the civ);
-keeping russia the most strategically stale civ of the game and call it a day.
I know which one i’d pick.

[Blastkiller]

I would like to understand why Russia is so strong now it is so scarce and many people say that it is so affixed?

[Blastkiller]

What is the problem with this civilization?

[richard]

I dont understand what the goal currently is, with Russia.

You dont want to remove Russia s ability to age up with 14Vills decently.

Russia s age up time is 4:20 if 14V-idleless. That s not particularly early. No need to remove that.

Do you really want to change Russia in a way they always age 17 in future instead of almost always age 14 right now?

That would be a huge change imo. And if you revert that later it would be really back and forward changing. I dont think it is a good idea to do that.

[gamevideo113]

I would like to understand why Russia is so strong now it is so scarce and many people say that it is so affixed?

It isn’t too strong. We are just trying to make the civ more fun and strategically interesting.

[Blastkiller]

I would like to understand why Russia is so strong now it is so scarce and many people say that it is so affixed?

It isn’t too strong. We are just trying to make the civ more fun and strategically interesting.

I think strategically there is, Aizamk in his games says this with suvorov or calmuk

[gamevideo113]

I dont understand what the goal currently is, with Russia.

You dont want to remove Russia s ability to age up with 14Vills decently.

Russia s age up time is 4:20 if 14V-idleless. That s not particularly early. No need to remove that.

Do you really want to change Russia in a way they always age 17 in future instead of almost always age 14 right now?

That would be a huge change imo. And if you revert that later it would be really back and forward changing. I dont think it is a good idea to do that.

The 14v ageup stays untouched with what i’m proposing.