Chinese Discussion Thread

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Need european army, 3skirms 2goons batches
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

Atomiswave wrote:
fei123456 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:One of China's main weak spots is low anti cav potential, especially against heavy cav. Pikes are useless in age 3, Keshisks too weak, while Changdaos are just not enough. Manchu's are very good merc shipment, but one can't always afford them. I think buff to China's anti cav potential is in order...

imo it's china's opponent who should focus more on his anticav job :hmm:


Ye, meteors and fails are very good cav, but how many times have you seen China lose to mass cuirs or even mass huss. I saw it too many times.....

nope. i beat cuirass too many times (with chinese cav), even snowww's france.
cuir are strong but they train too slowly (60s a batch, while china needs 29s only). if you don't have stagecoach eco, starting cuir vs china is not a wise choice.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

fei123456 wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
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Ye, meteors and fails are very good cav, but how many times have you seen China lose to mass cuirs or even mass huss. I saw it too many times.....

nope. i beat cuirass too many times (with chinese cav), even snowww's france.
cuir are strong but they train too slowly (60s a batch, while china needs 29s only). if you don't have stagecoach eco, starting cuir vs china is not a wise choice.

its mostly about the timing french has to be cautious in the early game because the shipments of china can temporarily compensate for the lack of anti cav in age 3. But once you get a decent mass of cuirs backed by falcs and maybe even have CC on the cuirs there is little china can do.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

fei123456 wrote:china has pikes and redcoats to do anti-cav job in age 2. keshik are a bit weak, but it's not so bad.
steppe rider is the problem. you can only have 2 steppe in a batch (means 1 hussar), and you don't have another unit to replace them.
10 rattan shields are not bad, but it's far from enough.
that means, after 7 steppe died, china can only train a colonial army with chukonu+pike/keshik/redcoat, which is far from "complete". what will you do if you play colonial with an european civ, but are not allowed to train hussars? it's called "unplayable"!


White Pagoda + Disciples? That said, I'd agree with changing Standard Army to have 3 Steppe Riders instead of 2. It's the only way you can train Steppe Riders in game, and while Steppes amount to a racial weakness, with the right cards much of it can be ameliorated. Getting 3 Steppe Riders + Mongolian Scourge means that you have the damage output of 3 Hussars per Standard Army, but not their hit points. It gives China a reasonable ability to raid enemy villagers.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

lordraphael wrote:
fei123456 wrote:
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nope. i beat cuirass too many times (with chinese cav), even snowww's france.
cuir are strong but they train too slowly (60s a batch, while china needs 29s only). if you don't have stagecoach eco, starting cuir vs china is not a wise choice.

its mostly about the timing french has to be cautious in the early game because the shipments of china can temporarily compensate for the lack of anti cav in age 3. But once you get a decent mass of cuirs backed by falcs and maybe even have CC on the cuirs there is little china can do.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

I'd disagree with Fei that it's the cav that prevents Chinese colonial from being playable. IMO, the issue is more Repelling Volley: when you consider that it gives skirms an effective 60% bonus to attack, it's as good as two infantry combat cards and is arguably the second-best upgrade card in the game after OHR. I'd love to see it moved down to Colonial, nerfed slightly (maybe 75% bonus instead of 100% bonus), and Mongolian Scourge moved up to Tier 3 and buffed (i.e, extra 15% attack on cav).

The thing is, few civs in T2 have true skirmishers, i.e, ranged infantry that counters heavy infantry. Take crossbowmen, for intsance. I spend a lot of time complaining about pikemen, but xbows make pikemen look good since xbows really only have the range and range damage resistance over musks.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think chu ko nus are actually fine at countering heavy infantry, as they have a 2x multiplier vs HI unlike euro crossbows.
A while ago I was advocating for turning "standard army hitpoints" into "standard army combat" because i think it would make players more comfortable in colonial with china. Other changes that would be beneficial for china imo are some consulate changes with those allies that almost never get used (russia/germans). Many people seem to be happy with the way china is playing right now though, so a change might not actually be necessary.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

Yeah, on a baseline, chuks are already very strong vs heavy infantry. But stab a +60% attack card on them, and what do you get?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

An OP unit? I think even sepoys would struggle vs chu ko nus with RV in colonial.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

China colonial units are all fine. The problem is that you can't train them individually. And to make things a bit harder (rightly so) they prevented China from having some banner army like steppe+keshik or pike+steppe (choku+keshik would be OP)
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja wrote:China colonial units are all fine. The problem is that you can't train them individually. And to make things a bit harder (rightly so) they prevented China from having some banner army like steppe+keshik or pike+steppe (choku+keshik would be OP)

How is it "rightfully so" if the result is no one actually playing china colonial besides for chuko-pike rush or white pagoda build (which are pretty much all-ins)? I don't think china should be drastically altered from RE by adding different banner armies (in the war academy or in the castle) but at least i'd like to see people actually considering colonial every now and then (with GFA builds or something).
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Because I can see those banner armies completely swinging the balance highly in favor of China in lot of situations.
By the way China can be played in colo, but in the current meta the point where your army gets actually scary is a bit too late and opponent already aged and stabilized. There is probably a small wondow wjer you can punish a semi with perfect play. I can post couple recs later.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

China's colonial is just bad. No musk unit, weak hand cav. Only redeeming factor are chu ko nu's, which are better than xbow's, thats all.

Like gamevideo said, no one is playing prolonged colo with China. Aizamk done it few times, without notable success. I don't think there are unexplored options with China in colo, we would have saw it by now....
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

Steppe Keshik, Keshik Chuk, I can see how these might be overpowered. But Steppe Pike? If you're talking about base siege ability, remember that the Japanese have Samurai with similar anti-building performance.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

No simply it would be to easy to balance a proper army together with choku+steppe and old han.
Bear in mind china banner armies are more cost efficient than other civ counterparts, hence why Chinese player has to deal with non perfectly balanced combo (in yerms of wanted units)
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Imo making the german trickles all available in colonial would be a good start.
If we want to touch the russian consulate i'd change +10% vill creation speed to +10% global creation speed (for both vills and army). +10% on vills only is insignificant.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Ehhh, Chinese banner armies being more cost efficient? I'll have some of what you're having.

To start with, pure OHA can get crushed by pure Hussar spam, since the chuks deal very little damage and eventually the pikes get crushed by weight of numbers. Then there's the joke of the Ming Army: pure Keshiks, on their own, are pretty decent, but since you have to get 240 VS worth of pikes with every 460 VS worth of Keshiks, their cost efficiency is wrecked because the pikes are glass cannon melee units and the entire Ming Army is countered by skirmishers or crossbows.

If your point is instead that each individual unit is more cost efficient than its alternatives, let's go over the units.

Qiang Pikeman: more or less equal to an European pikeman for cost, but with silghtly better building siege ability. Steppe Riders: a mini-Hussar that's worse because of its high granularity resulting in lower damage stability, and it only becomes good once you get Mongolian Scourge, and by the time you get Mongolian Scourge, you're deep into Colonial with no real eco advantage and a bunch of Chuks tagging along with no bonuses.

The only Chinese unit that's straight-up exceptional in Colonial is the Chu Ko Nu, and it's outclassed by Longbowmen and Stretlets in Age 2 without Repelling Volley.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

If nothing, they should at least consider reverting army train points.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Inst wrote:Ehhh, Chinese banner armies being more cost efficient? I'll have some of what you're having.

To start with, pure OHA can get crushed by pure Hussar spam, since the chuks deal very little damage and eventually the pikes get crushed by weight of numbers. Then there's the joke of the Ming Army: pure Keshiks, on their own, are pretty decent, but since you have to get 240 VS worth of pikes with every 460 VS worth of Keshiks, their cost efficiency is wrecked because the pikes are glass cannon melee units and the entire Ming Army is countered by skirmishers or crossbows.

If your point is instead that each individual unit is more cost efficient than its alternatives, let's go over the units.

Qiang Pikeman: more or less equal to an European pikeman for cost, but with silghtly better building siege ability. Steppe Riders: a mini-Hussar that's worse because of its high granularity resulting in lower damage stability, and it only becomes good once you get Mongolian Scourge, and by the time you get Mongolian Scourge, you're deep into Colonial with no real eco advantage and a bunch of Chuks tagging along with no bonuses.

The only Chinese unit that's straight-up exceptional in Colonial is the Chu Ko Nu, and it's outclassed by Longbowmen and Stretlets in Age 2 without Repelling Volley.

Chinese colonial units are better than most european counterparts taken singularly and also in banner armies (which I was refering to).

Chokus are far superior to xbow, and cost less.
Qiang pikes are more or less the same, they kinda suck just like euro pikes do. Someone keeps pointing out they're slitghtly more cost efficient but it's definitely compensated by the fact they're simply weaker considering them individually. They also have a worse multiplier vs abstractinfantry (coyotemen man rape them).
Keshiks have same exact base stats of Zambs for I believe a comparable cost or less. Once massed they're pretty good anticav, hence why China combo is very solid later in colonial. Multiplier after Mongolian Scourge is insane just Desert terror card is for Zambs.
Steppes are not necessarily worse than huss with their x1.5 vs ranged infantry and 30% ranged resistance. They can be buffed from brit consulate and 2 cards in colonial. Everything considered they scale better than most hussars in colonial.

Banner armies are simply more cost efficient.
Old han: 255f 180w for 3 chokus and 3 pikes, as opposed to 240f 240w for 3 xbows and 3 pikes.
Standard army: 255f 170g for 3 chokus and 2 steppes, as opposed to 240f 120w 80g for 3 xbows and 1 huss.
Ming army: 345f 120w for 2 pikes ad 3 keshik, as opposed to 242f 80w and 162g for 2 pikes and 1.8 goons (goon comparison even rounded down).
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

Cho Ku Nu are superior to Xbows, but that's less because Chu Ko Nu are OP, than Xbows suck. Seriously, Xbows deal 20 damage per 3 seconds vs heavy infantry, when muskets deal 23 damage per 3 seconds. When Chuks are compared to Strets or Longbows, before Repelling volley, they're overshadowed. The chuks are excellent for killing villagers, though.

Qiang are on par with pikes, but pikes aren't good units except for base siege.

Keshiks suck because you have to get them with Qiang, and they have terrible synergy with Qiang. Effectively, what you have with Ming Army is that the Qiang die off quickly and end up being a tax on your Keshik production of 33%.

As for Old Han Army and Standard Army, longbowmen + muskets or Strets + muskets outperform OHA, and Territorial Army outperforms OHA because you have a musket equivalent to go with it. Standard Army, likewise, is outperformed by Hussar + Longbowmen or Stretlet.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Lbow and strelets are two of the best units in the game, so no surprise. Still lbows are not necessarily more cost efficient than chokus, especially at countering heavy infantry.
Keshik+pikes work very well together. Of course pure keshik would be more practical but you cant have everything.
Any double ranged of course outperforms ranged+pike. Thats a problem with muskets rather than anything else. That's why you add cav vs those combo if you dont have your own musks. And China actually counter that just fine thanks to better multipliers of chokus and steppes.
Lbow huss or strel coss dont necessarily outperform choku+steppe. They do beat standard army in direct fight but only because steppes are more of a lancer type cav than all-around like huss and coss. Same for lbow vs chokus.
Territorial vs OH dowsnt make much sense because it is colo vs fortress.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

"Lbow huss or strel coss dont necessarily outperform choku+steppe."
what?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Per cost, at countering RI+HI?
Strel coss prob does but lbow huss doesnt outperform per cost.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Inst »

Qiang deal 19 DPS for 100 VS. Keshiks deal 10 DPS for 100 VS, then face armor reductions, dropping it down to 7 or 8 DPS, although Mongolian Scourge boosts it to 10 or 12 DPS. When you get Ming Army, it's the Qiang that do the heavy lifting, not the Keshiks. Keshiks are good for hit and run vs heavy cavalry, but with their low cooldown it's more micro intensive than with dragoons.

Another thing to point out is that Zamburaks can get two cards in Colonial, for an effective 70% damage boost. So, carded Zamburaks in Colonial outperform Keshiks slightly.

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