Chinese Discussion Thread

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I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.

there's simply no reason to send it now. The 1000f was never really an impediment, so taking it out is totally irrelevant if what you get for it is still not useful. it should indeed be tweaked, in that case it's still not a free win but atleast there would be a reason to send it. Right now, wood just easily runs out. And the territorial units are better, not to mention they actually can be made infinitely, whereas wood will run out at some point. The +4 range that territorial skirs have just make them so much more superior, as well as the fact that territorial armies have a combat upgrade. On top of that, territorial armies have better synergy with the cav army, so there's no need to have awkward macro. Simply 0 reason to not make them on EP when u IV.

Coin runs out significantly sooner, unless you're making rice paddies for some reason?

The 1000f was definitely a problem on previous iterations of EP. I think it's worth it in a lot of games right now, but Territorial is better if you want the tempo in early Industrial.

on ep maybe, because 50/50 is worthless, and if you charge 1000f for it, it's even worse. But on re it wasn't, and it was definitely worth it. Territorial is simply better always. With 50% better stats, for 50% more cost, the old han units don't have superior stats to the Territorial units. Not if you take into account range and resistance and upgrade cost.

also, if coin runs out on the map, it runs out for everyone. Any civ would transition into mills + plantations here, so why wouldn't china? Why would you send a card just so you can make an inferior unit combo, that's different than the units you've been making before, just so you don't have to make paddies? that seems far fetched to me.

50/50? Isn't it 50/25 and free?

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I think Old Han Reforms is mostly fine now that you don't have to pay for the card. Perhaps the cost increase needs to be tweaked down to 20% or 15%, but in general this card should not equal a free win for China, like it did on previous patches.

there's simply no reason to send it now. The 1000f was never really an impediment, so taking it out is totally irrelevant if what you get for it is still not useful. it should indeed be tweaked, in that case it's still not a free win but atleast there would be a reason to send it. Right now, wood just easily runs out. And the territorial units are better, not to mention they actually can be made infinitely, whereas wood will run out at some point. The +4 range that territorial skirs have just make them so much more superior, as well as the fact that territorial armies have a combat upgrade. On top of that, territorial armies have better synergy with the cav army, so there's no need to have awkward macro. Simply 0 reason to not make them on EP when u IV.

Coin runs out significantly sooner, unless you're making rice paddies for some reason?

The 1000f was definitely a problem on previous iterations of EP. I think it's worth it in a lot of games right now, but Territorial is better if you want the tempo in early Industrial.

on ep maybe, because 50/50 is worthless,

It's 50/25 right now. I wouldn't say sending a card to get imperial stats on 2 units is "worthless". Yes it makes your units more expensive but this is a core feature of the card which makes it better the more units you already have on the field.
In any case, worthless seems overstating it. It's not an autowin anymore, and it shouldn't be. Could tweak to 60/30 though.

Don't. Just make it 50/0, 1000f instead.

[yurashic]

China is most likely one of the top civs in the current balance state. It does decent vs all civs and on all maps, including current top civs (Brits, India, Dutch). On the other hand doesn't win any MU super hard and requires quite some time before becoming a ridicolous civ which I repute the bottom line to consider nerfing a civ significantly at the moment.

Brits, India, Dutch and some other civs beat China quite hard honestly...

[Hazza54321]

yea dont see china beating those

[Garja]

I dont think Brits beat them at all honestly. India ye, prob with both rush and ff, but India is the top civ. With Dutch it's about 50-50 I think. Again Dutch 5 bank is insane.

[Hazza54321]

what would u do vs brit

[Garja]

Just ff. If Brit stay colo it shouldnt be a problem. If Brit VC semi you go greedier FF and you should be fine. China units are stronger and unit spam is pretty much the same for the whole game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just ff. If Brit stay colo it shouldnt be a problem. If Brit VC semi you go greedier FF and you should be fine. China units are stronger and unit spam is pretty much the same for the whole game.

Brit vc semi vs china ff is just a free win for brits lol.

[yemshi]

Yeah just musk/huss and double card your huss with CC and Cav HP while having a TP up and training in transition. Or my style with full cav.
Can do 3v, VC, 700w, 700c, Cav HP, CC, 5 huss, 9 musk. Could even sneak in 2nd TP or Cree etc. or do a 5 huss semi variation with 5v, 700c.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea and you even have the range advantage thanks to the 2 falcs.

[Garja]

And all of this has been done in past and was never a free win.

[[Armag] diarouga]

And all of this has been done in past and was never a free win.

VC has never been done in the past.
Here you clearly have no clue, I've played this MU a lot and I can tell you that brit VC ff>>>>China eco ff

[Kaiserklein]

Honestly china can't even handle a dumb colo musk huss pressure from brits. Brits just get too much mass, and even if somehow china can hold, they're still way behind in eco.

[oxaloacetate]

And all of this has been done in past and was never a free win.

VC has never been done in the past.
Here you clearly have no clue, I've played this MU a lot and I can tell you that brit VC ff>>>>China eco ff

Grudge pl0x

[Goodspeed]

Boom civs like Brit are a bit of a natural counter to China because China gets going too slowly to punish a full boom and can't invest in eco as much. So I'm not sure if the Brit vs China discussion is even relevant when it comes to either of these civs' balance.

[Garja]

I think there is sort of a misconception on China booming potential when it comes to game where you just mass for the big battle. For practical purposes China will spam just the same amount of units of Brits because of shipments, wonders, autoupgrading units (which gives one more batch essentially) and exports. Also if given the time China will send 1k wood or gold and will produce from 2 raxes with full market ups.
The thing with Brits imo is that units are strictly worse. Like lbows are super unefficient firing (and if get meeleed lose the 1.5 ranged rof advantage) and also huss are kinda meh because of the 20% RR. Goons are sort of a target for changdao. Musks is probably the most interesting unit because musk > changdao, but China has redcoats and musks are countered pretty hard by skirms while changdao are not countered as good by lbows. Eventually Brits run out of res and vills have to walk across the map while China still poops out stuff from wonders and consulate. Also China just consume less food and can take advantage of fattened herdables.

Unless VC gives you substantially more units than China have at a critical point I'd say that no Brits don't beat China. Of course that's what you're going to assume but up to now I stand by my assumption that China can go greedier vs a VC build and make more units than normal itself.

[deleted_user0]

Honestly china can't even handle a dumb colo musk huss pressure from brits. Brits just get too much mass, and even if somehow china can hold, they're still way behind in eco.

china doesn't really have any trouble vs that. Also, the 8 skir wonder play shouldn't be underestimated vs brits. I don't think this mu is a total walk over, but i do think its brits favored.

vs VC semi china should actually do a very agressive FF with forward village and 9 pike shipment vs cav, 8 bow vs musk and push in asap with 8 skirs and just apply pressure while riding shipments to victory. Just never allow brits to get any mass.

or

do fi. brits VC semi has like a 9.30 min age up. China FI is 10m. The semi will delay you perhaps 30-40 sec. So you will be aged up around the time brits start pushing your base. At this point you should have 15 musk, 12 skir, disciples and 2 old han banners + mm. If you hold, then you are set to win.

still, brits should generally edge it out i think.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Honestly I've play it so much and Brits just wins.
Anyway, I agree with Umeu, agressive builds are your best bet. There is just no way you can beat a VC brit with an eco ff.
By the way, you just want to go for a musk/huss composition with 2 falcs, and you will have a lot more+ China can't deal with the 2 falcs.

[Hazza54321]

what would you do vs musk huss age 2, 8 bow 9 pike 700g?

[Garja]

Lol China cant deal with 2 falcs? They even have mortars if rly so scarted about 2 falcs. And musk huss is kinda a crappy combo honestly. I've seen players win with that but just because chinese player plays bad.

[Garja]

what would you do vs musk huss age 2, 8 bow 9 pike 700g?

Just ff. China can hold pretty much any rush without units, and musk huss is no way close to a rush. Alternatively you can mix up a xbow pike colo play just to remember that china has one of the best bow/pike play in the game so any attempt of aggro musk huss is not even supposed to be an option.

[[Armag] diarouga]

what would you do vs musk huss age 2, 8 bow 9 pike 700g?

I'm not sure since I've never really tried the musk/huss build in age2, because VC ff is a free win, but I guess TP in age1 700c/8bows/700w with the 8skirms age up should hold, after this you'll have a lot less eco, but you're in age3 as China so the game goes on, probably still brit favoured coz they can keep the range advantage with lb.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lol China cant deal with 2 falcs? They even have mortars if rly so scarted about 2 falcs. And musk huss is kinda a crappy combo honestly. I've seen players win with that but just because chinese player plays bad.

I wish I had time to show you I know my shit, but unfortunately I don't right now, if you want though, I can 5-0 you in a BO9 in 2weeks and show you how brit wins this.

[sudmakmak]

Lol China cant deal with 2 falcs? They even have mortars if rly so scarted about 2 falcs. And musk huss is kinda a crappy combo honestly. I've seen players win with that but just because chinese player plays bad.

U? U are chinese player noob.sure. If i seen your game. lose with china game. LOL .

[gh0st]

The legend has spoken.
/thread