Chinese Discussion Thread

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by look »

put otto to produce vills manually, decrease production time by 5%, and then we will have a little more mechanics for this civ, with a simple change
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Imo the two castle armies should stay in the castle, even if they are changed, to prevent them from being too brooken.

Brooken army: Initially i was thinking about 3 changdao+1 flamethrower, but the cost of the army would result in an ugly 285f 170w 170g. Therefore it would be probably better to move it to colonial and make it 2 pikes+1 flamethrower (good for sieging i guess) for 290w 170c. It is still very expensive for being an age2 army and pikes are already in 2 other armies so it doesn’t seem to be a brilliant idea in general, but perhaps helps a bit the viability of flamethrowers and is surely less brooken than changdao+meteor. Alternatively a steppe+pike army would also be good for sieging (3 pikes + 2 steppes for 180w 170g, or 4 pikes 3 steppes idk)

Mongolian army: 3 keshiks + 2 meteors, kinda justifiable by the fact that both these units have a bonus vs artillery like the original mongolian army, fortress army (ofc) for 345f 350c available in the castle.

Imo old dynasties reforms is overkill. Keshik getting 10 atk is already a big buff.
Imperial keshik with mongolian scourge vs cav (without manchu combat and western reforms): 20x2x4=160 every 3 seconds
Imperial jinete with full cards and upgrades: 52x3=156 every 3 seconds
Maybe steppe would benefit from old dynasties, but i’m not sure about buffing keshiks even more.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kazamkikaz »

look wrote:put otto to produce vills manually, decrease production time by 5%, and then we will have a little more mechanics for this civ, with a simple change

That is not negotiable
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

I think it's odd that the meteor hammers have no damage penalty against vills (something like x0.7). Combined with their ridiculous range, they prevent all vills retreat during a raid and basically slay them before they make 5 steps, unless you have inhuman reactions.
It would be okay to compensate by giving Iron flails a x1.5 bonus versus vills I guess.

Meteor hammers come with iron flails with the forbidden army, so maybe the effects of this wouldn't be significant. However it would make 4 iron flails shipment a bit more viable, while slightly nerfing meteor hammers and the Black Flag army. What do you think?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Djigit wrote:It would be okay to compensate by giving Iron flails a x1.5 bonus versus vills I guess.


Can't tell if sarcasm or not :hmm:
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

Kawapasaka wrote:
Djigit wrote:It would be okay to compensate by giving Iron flails a x1.5 bonus versus vills I guess.


Can't tell if sarcasm or not :hmm:
Not sarcasm. It's 28.5 dmg vs vills, slightly below what meteors do right now. What's the issue? The area of effect?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Djigit wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
Djigit wrote:It would be okay to compensate by giving Iron flails a x1.5 bonus versus vills I guess.


Can't tell if sarcasm or not :hmm:
Not sarcasm. It's 28.5 dmg vs vills, slightly below what meteors do right now. What's the issue? The area of effect?


No, just that your opening line was essentially stating "this cav unit that isn't specialised towards raiding is too good at raiding", so suggesting buffing another unit to also be better at raiding didn't seem like a logical follow-up.
Are Iron Flails particularly bad at raiding?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

China has raiding cav already, steppe riders are like cheap opris now on Beta.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

Kawapasaka wrote:
Djigit wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Not sarcasm. It's 28.5 dmg vs vills, slightly below what meteors do right now. What's the issue? The area of effect?


No, just that your opening line was essentially stating "this cav unit that isn't specialised towards raiding is too good at raiding", so suggesting buffing another unit to also be better at raiding didn't seem like a logical follow-up.
Are Iron Flails particularly bad at raiding?
That's only because I realized EP changes work in a yin and yang way. Don't ask me why, but something always has to be compensated :roll:

Iron flails do 19 dmg with 1 area so they are average/below average.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Djigit wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
Show hidden quotes


No, just that your opening line was essentially stating "this cav unit that isn't specialised towards raiding is too good at raiding", so suggesting buffing another unit to also be better at raiding didn't seem like a logical follow-up.
Are Iron Flails particularly bad at raiding?
That's only because I realized EP changes work in a yin and yang way. Don't ask me why, but something always has to be compensated :roll:

Iron flails do 19 dmg with 1 area so they are average/below average.


Nevermind I completely misread that and for some strange reason thought your proposal for buffing the Flails' damage was an alternative to nerfing the Hammers', rather than a complementary change. My bad.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kazamkikaz »

Djigit wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
Show hidden quotes


No, just that your opening line was essentially stating "this cav unit that isn't specialised towards raiding is too good at raiding", so suggesting buffing another unit to also be better at raiding didn't seem like a logical follow-up.
Are Iron Flails particularly bad at raiding?
That's only because I realized EP changes work in a yin and yang way. Don't ask me why, but something always has to be compensated :roll:

Iron flails do 19 dmg with 1 area so they are average/below average.

i got raided today with them and realized how good they are at doing it, so i dont know why u want more
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Meteor hammer raids shouldn't be nerfed imo, its one of china's few counter-eco units. New beta stepees are decent now i suppose but still pretty trash
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:For me I just want the Chinese banner army changes reverted or at least returned to the Castle. I don't really mind that they're changed, but they are definitely a problem in the War Academy. Having the extra options sounds like a nice QoL change for them, but receiving the extra flexibility for free from the War Academy doesn't blend well with China's compositional design IMO.
I'm entirely willing to try that, if the current setup doesn't work out. If, on the other hand, it does, it's preferable. My plan, right now, is this:

1. Decrease Iron Flail cost from 240f to 220f and increase Meteor Hammer cost from 175c to 190c (please note how this would both buff the largely unviable "Imperial Army", and nerf "Black Flag Army"). Test. Then, if overpowered or unpopular, try "2", below.
2. Move "Black Flag Army" and "Mongolian Army" from the War Academy to the Castle. Test. Then, if overpowered or unpopular, try "3", below.
3. Revert "Black Flag Army" changes. Test. Then, if overpowered or unpopular, opt for "4", below.
4. Revert "Mongolian Army" changes.

Did you play Chinese on EP7, yet?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

dansil92 wrote:Meteor hammer raids shouldn't be nerfed imo, its one of china's few counter-eco units. New beta stepees are decent now i suppose but still pretty trash
Better pathing and faster Steppes should be viable; especially when the banner-army changes are taken into account.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

I am very keen on getting more player feedback on whether Chinese is too weak, on non-wood crate starts. If it is, I suggest a Village cost buff (on top of shuffling Iron Flail and Meteor Hammer costs).
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

Having those new banner armies is a huge balance flop.
China banner mechanic is based purely on having loopholes. Adding these banner armies is the equivalent of adding single trainable units for Russia next to the batch mechanic. It simply doesn't make sense from design pov and it's detrimental to balance.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

i agree with garja just reducing chinas "weaknesses" compositionally. It would be like giving more range to flaming arrows or rusketeers upgrades in age 2
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

On the starting crates:
200f 300w -> same as before
300f 200w -> -40w and delayed TP
300f 300w -> +100f
300f 200w 100g -> about +50w, delayed TP

Basically 2 iterarions are roughly the same as before, one is better and one is worse. This is assuming you want to FF. If the plan is colonial it may even be slightly better than before.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Aizamk »

I think china’s colonial is in a good spot right now simply from the keshik steppe buffs, in particular obstruction radius. I’d rather the steppe keshik army remain an option, so prefer the compromise of moving it back to the castle to avoid clutter.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I agree that buffing steppe and keshik is prob just enough to make it viable. The steppe-keshik army is ofc fun but it's objectively too good.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

I had an idea for addressing some players' concerns with giving Chinese dynamic ("random") crates:

– Village cost changed from 200w to 50f, 150w

This change should increase the viability of chopping 100w for a Village, on non-wood starts, which should, in turn, alleviate the issues some players experience, with the implementation of dynamic ("random") crates.

Depending on feedback, it might see testing.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Not a fan. The change might be functional but it's not very nice from a design point of view.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:I had an idea for addressing some players' concerns with giving Chinese dynamic ("random") crates:

– Village cost changed from 200w to 50f, 150w

This change should increase the viability of chopping 100w for a Village, on non-wood starts, which should, in turn, alleviate the issues some players experience, with the implementation of dynamic ("random") crates.

Depending on feedback, it might see testing.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Sargsyan »

just revert china changes
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