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United States of America n0el
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31 Aug 2016, 13:07

China overestimation as usual
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Great Britain britishmusketeer
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25 Nov 2016, 12:03

I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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25 Nov 2016, 15:04

britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.
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Great Britain britishmusketeer
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25 Nov 2016, 15:39

Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.

Well i'm not saying china needs another nerf, just that iron troops being broken should maybe be a consideration when balancing china.
Austria mongo10
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25 Nov 2016, 15:49

britishmusketeer wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.

Well i'm not saying china needs another nerf, just that iron troops being broken should maybe be a consideration when balancing china.

Lol but in 95% of cases it is better to not send them, because they obviously do have hard counters (hand cav).
So I don't get your point. If they would be OP, everyone would send them, but they just don't kill cav.
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25 Nov 2016, 16:06

n0eL wrote:China overestimation as usual
Get the fuck up out of here!
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25 Nov 2016, 16:09

britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.
Exactly! Iron Troops don't have a negative multiplier against cavalry and they must be nerfed!

They must also be removed from Atonement!
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Great Britain britishmusketeer
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25 Nov 2016, 16:36

If you take the example of 17 skirms vs 5 huss and 9 iron troops vs 5 huss: the 17 skirms can't beat the 5 huss even with micro, however the iron troops will beat the 5 huss even with 0 micro.
Austria mongo10
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25 Nov 2016, 17:00

britishmusketeer wrote:If you take the example of 17 skirms vs 5 huss and 9 iron troops vs 5 huss: the 17 skirms can't beat the 5 huss even with micro, however the iron troops will beat the 5 huss even with 0 micro.


Yeah, but that's a bad example. :/
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Brazil lemmings121
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25 Nov 2016, 18:20

???, porcelain tower, ???, intervention, changdaos, iron troops, profit!

i'm sure @mongo10 can fill the gaps better then me.
Austria mongo10
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25 Nov 2016, 20:53

?
Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 Nov 2016, 22:30

mongo10 wrote:?
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Brazil lemmings121
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25 Nov 2016, 23:45

I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.
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Russia yurashic
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25 Nov 2016, 23:50

lemmings121 wrote:I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.


You just do standard FF (700 gold, 700 wood, Porcelain tower, may be 1000 wood) and send them after 2-3 shipments.
No Flag umeu
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26 Nov 2016, 10:21

Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.


No neg multiplier is a bug with tad merc units, its not a nerf, its bugfixing. Repentant jaegers have the same for example
Austria mongo10
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26 Nov 2016, 18:28

lemmings121 wrote:I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.


ah yeah, but there isn't one. That's why they are not OP.
Germany lordraphael
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26 Nov 2016, 18:39

iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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26 Nov 2016, 18:43

lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?
Germany lordraphael
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26 Nov 2016, 18:54

Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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26 Nov 2016, 19:17

lordraphael wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.


Well you should have won by then.....
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Serbia Atomiswave
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27 Nov 2016, 16:20

Would 400w fixed start for China be too much? With 400w you can build 2 villages without wasting vill seconds on chopping wood, hence making China age up faster and smoother. You can also go for tp, which creates more more options for China.

We all know China struggles big time with rushes. Currently you have to do everything right in order to pull off China ff vs most civs.
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Poland pecelot
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27 Nov 2016, 17:30

nah, 500w at the very least :flowers:
I see a pikeman and I want it painted grey :geek:
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27 Nov 2016, 23:44

Seeing how it is yet to be realized: Iron Troops have a cavalry multiplier, and they are hard-countered by heavy cavalry.

TIL...
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27 Nov 2016, 23:47

Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
Show hidden quotes

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.


Well you should have won by then.....
Nevermind Rafufu; he just can't play Chinese very well.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Great Britain britishmusketeer
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Posts: 1845

28 Nov 2016, 00:05

Hmm yea it's just the repentant ones that don't have the multiplier. I'm thinking the card that lets you train them might be super op in that case since they also cost 200g(value is 400g).
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