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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 31 Aug 2016, 13:07
by n0el
China overestimation as usual

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 12:03
by britishmusketeer
I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 15:04
by Atomiswave
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 15:39
by britishmusketeer
Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.

Well i'm not saying china needs another nerf, just that iron troops being broken should maybe be a consideration when balancing china.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 15:49
by mongo10
britishmusketeer wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.

Well i'm not saying china needs another nerf, just that iron troops being broken should maybe be a consideration when balancing china.

Lol but in 95% of cases it is better to not send them, because they obviously do have hard counters (hand cav).
So I don't get your point. If they would be OP, everyone would send them, but they just don't kill cav.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 16:06
by zoom
n0eL wrote:China overestimation as usual
Get the fuck up out of here!

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 16:09
by zoom
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.
Exactly! Iron Troops don't have a negative multiplier against cavalry and they must be nerfed!

They must also be removed from Atonement!

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 16:36
by britishmusketeer
If you take the example of 17 skirms vs 5 huss and 9 iron troops vs 5 huss: the 17 skirms can't beat the 5 huss even with micro, however the iron troops will beat the 5 huss even with 0 micro.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 17:00
by mongo10
britishmusketeer wrote:If you take the example of 17 skirms vs 5 huss and 9 iron troops vs 5 huss: the 17 skirms can't beat the 5 huss even with micro, however the iron troops will beat the 5 huss even with 0 micro.


Yeah, but that's a bad example. :/

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 18:20
by lemmings121
???, porcelain tower, ???, intervention, changdaos, iron troops, profit!

i'm sure @mongo10 can fill the gaps better then me.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 20:53
by mongo10
?

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 22:30
by Hazza54321
mongo10 wrote:?

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 23:45
by lemmings121
I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 25 Nov 2016, 23:50
by yurashic
lemmings121 wrote:I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.


You just do standard FF (700 gold, 700 wood, Porcelain tower, may be 1000 wood) and send them after 2-3 shipments.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 10:21
by deleted_user0
Atomiswave wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think the main issue with china atm is the iron troops. The 9 iron troops is literally insane. 1 iron troop can beat 3 skirms despite costing less than 2. They also have no negative multiplier vs cav so they do better than expected against them and once they get manchu your only option is to try and outskirm them which you can't really do cost effectively.


China already got 3 nerfs, no need to nerf it more.


No neg multiplier is a bug with tad merc units, its not a nerf, its bugfixing. Repentant jaegers have the same for example

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 18:28
by mongo10
lemmings121 wrote:I mean... If iron troops are op as said, then there should be an op build order, something similar to what I said.


ah yeah, but there isn't one. That's why they are not OP.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 18:39
by lordraphael
iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 18:43
by Atomiswave
lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 18:54
by lordraphael
Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 26 Nov 2016, 19:17
by Atomiswave
lordraphael wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:iron troops are very strong i agree. but they arent cav. Imo only handcav has the potential to break a game at least if they can only be shipped and not made ( see mams, but even hackas or stradiots can break the game if you get a good pop or your opponent has no anti cav ) . For RI you usally need a bigger mass then 10 to make them OP. Sure jeagars and iron troops are strong shipments but in the end you only have 13 /10 of them. Also the problem with china is that they have much more an anti cav problem than they have one with RI. THey cna compensate their RI weakness by producing cav but they dont really have a way to compensate their anti cav weakness except for sending manchus. ANd sending 2 merc shipments is kinda unlikely most of the time.


Redcoats and carded changdao maybe?

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.


Well you should have won by then.....

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 27 Nov 2016, 16:20
by Atomiswave
Would 400w fixed start for China be too much? With 400w you can build 2 villages without wasting vill seconds on chopping wood, hence making China age up faster and smoother. You can also go for tp, which creates more more options for China.

We all know China struggles big time with rushes. Currently you have to do everything right in order to pull off China ff vs most civs.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 27 Nov 2016, 17:30
by pecelot
nah, 500w at the very least :flowers:

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 27 Nov 2016, 23:44
by zoom
Seeing how it is yet to be realized: Iron Troops have a cavalry multiplier, and they are hard-countered by heavy cavalry.

TIL...

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 27 Nov 2016, 23:47
by zoom
Atomiswave wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
Show hidden quotes

works until you run out of shipments. Just wathc mongo sw12 if you need help to understand. He was fine until he ran out of good anti cav shipments.


Well you should have won by then.....
Nevermind Rafufu; he just can't play Chinese very well.

Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Posted: 28 Nov 2016, 00:05
by britishmusketeer
Hmm yea it's just the repentant ones that don't have the multiplier. I'm thinking the card that lets you train them might be super op in that case since they also cost 200g(value is 400g).