Chinese Discussion Thread

France Kaiserklein
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Please don't let the otto vils overpop. Managing that is one of the only otto macro skills
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I think its stupid for a 50sec train timed vill to be deleted or a heavy cannon, rather than a flying crow or a banner army.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Kaiserklein wrote:Please don't let the otto vils overpop. Managing that is one of the only otto macro skills

you could just stop the vill generation process if it ends with no pop being free. the vill would then pop as soon as pop space is free again and the generation process would start again.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:I think its stupid for a 50sec train timed vill to be deleted or a heavy cannon, rather than a flying crow or a banner army.

But it's also stupid to make the otto macro easier. Just have flying crows and banner armies also get deleted then

duckzilla wrote:you could just stop the vill generation process if it ends with no pop being free. the vill would then pop as soon as pop space is free again and the generation process would start again.

Yes, that's exactly what I don't want.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

That's still a nerf though, it delays their eco if they make the mistake of being overpoped, so any delay on building that house is still negative to their eco.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:I think its stupid for a 50sec train timed vill to be deleted or a heavy cannon, rather than a flying crow or a banner army.
I think any of those being deleted is equally silly.

Also, so help me Garja, but I think Riotcake has a good point.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:I think its stupid for a 50sec train timed vill to be deleted or a heavy cannon, rather than a flying crow or a banner army.
I think any of those being deleted is equally silly.

Also, so help me Garja, but I think Riotcake has a good point.

That's not right, diarouga said that anyone below pr35 can't have good points!
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Riotcoke wrote:That's still a nerf though, it delays their eco if they make the mistake of being overpoped, so any delay on building that house is still negative to their eco.

Sure, but currently if you're housed as otto you lose 50 sec worth of vil training time. With that change, you'd probably lose like 5 sec, which is 10 times less impactful. It means mismacroing your pop space would be less punishing for otto, making it even more of a lowbob civ.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by edeholland »

If you want Otto to require more skill to play you could just disable the auto-train mechanic so you still have to queue them up and you still need pop to start training them.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by scarm »

Or we could just leave Otto vills as they are because there is not a single reason to change them?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:That's still a nerf though, it delays their eco if they make the mistake of being overpoped, so any delay on building that house is still negative to their eco.

Sure, but currently if you're housed as otto you lose 50 sec worth of vil training time. With that change, you'd probably lose like 5 sec, which is 10 times less impactful. It means mismacroing your pop space would be less punishing for otto, making it even more of a lowbob civ.
You'd lose nothing with perfect play, and anything between nothing and infinity without it – seems reasonable to me. I don't understand your burning desire to penalize Ottomans excessively.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

scarm wrote:Or we could just leave Otto vills as they are because there is not a single reason to change them?
I think you've missed it: The reason would be not to penalize Ottomans severely for no particular reason.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by scarm »

No i didn't. Fact of the matter is we all are playing this game for 10 years with that "penalty" and its honestly not hard to just make sure you aren't popped. Sure its inconsistent but its also no big deal at all, so why change it?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

scarm wrote:No i didn't. Fact of the matter is we all are playing this game for 10 years with that "penalty" and its honestly not hard to just make sure you aren't popped. Sure its inconsistent but its also no big deal at all, so why change it?

Because obviously Otto Marco is too hard
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

scarm wrote:No i didn't. Fact of the matter is we all are playing this game for 10 years with that "penalty" and its honestly not hard to just make sure you aren't popped. Sure its inconsistent but its also no big deal at all, so why change it?
Again, you've missed the point: the argument were to make it less penalizing (something being excessively penalizing isn't necessarily good, because it already is). You just don't seem to think it should be, or to understand this perspective, that isn't your own. That's the best I could ever hope to explain it.

Personally, I'm undecided.

Wait, isn't this the Chinese thread??
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by scarm »

I understand the argument, i am just saying that it isn't actually penalizing to a large decree. There simply is no need to "unnerf" this in my eyes because it doesn't in practice make Ottoman play worse, unless you are popped, in which case you just fucked up and its your fault. And yes i simply don't believe it should be changed because the impact it has isn't normally large, if it has one it is deserved because you played badly, and if anything the chinese way of autoproduction is the incosistency and not the other way round. No need to imply i can't understand a simple argument or am not willing to understand yours...

I personally just think a Balance Patch like EP should follow a principle of "never changing a running system" and honestly, Otto vills not being produced to due being popped is literally the last thing most otto players will think or complain about, because they are just used to this and played with this forever. Again this is MY PERSONAL OPINION and i fully understand and acknowledge your point, i simply disagree.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:That's still a nerf though, it delays their eco if they make the mistake of being overpoped, so any delay on building that house is still negative to their eco.

Sure, but currently if you're housed as otto you lose 50 sec worth of vil training time. With that change, you'd probably lose like 5 sec, which is 10 times less impactful. It means mismacroing your pop space would be less punishing for otto, making it even more of a lowbob civ.
You'd lose nothing with perfect play, and anything between nothing and infinity without it – seems reasonable to me. I don't understand your burning desire to penalize Ottomans excessively.

I'm just getting tired of people wanting to change these details just because it makes a civ easier to play. It's like when they wanted to prevent the warchief from being revived by a nearby unit if you're already dancing for it, so that you don't waste a bunch of VS dancing for nothing. Just play accurately, and that won't happen. I don't want to "penalize" ottos, I just want to not make their macro even easier while also adding an unnecessary change.

We have so many changes from RE already, do we really need this kind of stuff as well? Especially since this is how it always worked for free units among euro civs... Heavies, rockets, bombards and otto vils are just deleted when you don't have the pop space for them. If anything, it's china having extra bonuses and making it inconsistent. So if we have to change something, let chinese free stuff be deleted.
At the end of the day though, discussing this is a waste of time, because it's just details.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

ye id rather have chinese units get deleted than the other way around a lot more consistent
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That would be a huge nerf though.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Just leave it how it is atm?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by tabben »

Kaiser and rapha suggesting chinese stuff getting deleted haha
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

tabben wrote:Kaiser and rapha suggesting chinese stuff getting deleted haha

Nope. I said "if we have to change something", let's change it this way.
I don't actually want to change anything because it's fine as it is.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Technically, the behavior differs because euro stuff is using "maintained" actions, while post-euro stuff is using firepit dances. It might be possible for Kev to get the maintained actions in line with firepit dances, though it sounds like pretty messy stuff. Question remains whether this is even desirable.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:
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You'd lose nothing with perfect play, and anything between nothing and infinity without it – seems reasonable to me. I don't understand your burning desire to penalize Ottomans excessively.

I'm just getting tired of people wanting to change these details just because it makes a civ easier to play. It's like when they wanted to prevent the warchief from being revived by a nearby unit if you're already dancing for it, so that you don't waste a bunch of VS dancing for nothing. Just play accurately, and that won't happen. I don't want to "penalize" ottos, I just want to not make their macro even easier while also adding an unnecessary change.

We have so many changes from RE already, do we really need this kind of stuff as well? Especially since this is how it always worked for free units among euro civs... Heavies, rockets, bombards and otto vils are just deleted when you don't have the pop space for them. If anything, it's china having extra bonuses and making it inconsistent. So if we have to change something, let chinese free stuff be deleted.
At the end of the day though, discussing this is a waste of time, because it's just details.
I largely agree. I wouldn't change it, personally. It's just, I see both sides of the argument.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Just leave it how it is atm?
Pretty much!

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