Chinese Discussion Thread

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Played some games vs harcha yesterday, China colonial is quite legit now, maybe too legit? Feels to me like the civs only weakness now is getting outscaled after 30min because of akward unit training, before that it's simply amazing.
Also crate starts are quite good, from what i understand they get~500 res compared to ~400 res for most other civs which is quite strong.

Why's that – Steppe Rider speed buff?

Hmm didnt think Steppes were super impactful. China gets quite a good mass early on, Keshiks are decent anticav and their eco is reasonable. Also the Keshik-Steppe army is quite useful. I only won the game where i made a ton of bows (musk get countered quite hard by ckn due to x2), and that was a real grind.
Probably China colonial wasnt too bad to begin with and ppl just needed to realize that.

I was being sarcastic. It wasn't that bad. The point I'm trying to make it's not much less bad, now, though.

[Scroogie]

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Played some games vs harcha yesterday, China colonial is quite legit now, maybe too legit? Feels to me like the civs only weakness now is getting outscaled after 30min because of akward unit training, before that it's simply amazing.
Also crate starts are quite good, from what i understand they get~500 res compared to ~400 res for most other civs which is quite strong.

Why's that – Steppe Rider speed buff?

Hmm didnt think Steppes were super impactful. China gets quite a good mass early on, Keshiks are decent anticav and their eco is reasonable. Also the Keshik-Steppe army is quite useful. I only won the game where i made a ton of bows (musk get countered quite hard by ckn due to x2), and that was a real grind.
Probably China colonial wasnt too bad to begin with and ppl just needed to realize that.

I was being sarcastic. It wasn't that bad. The point I'm trying to make it's not much less bad, now, though.

Yea China is quite strong rn i feel. No idea why u ranked them average below France in ur tierlist.

[Kawapasaka]

As much as I disagreed with the new armies by principle, I have to admit they are fun AF to use. Moving them to the castle seems to be a fair compromise.
I don't think I'll even make a War Academy vs FB Russia or Azzy ever again

[harcha]

As much as I disagreed with the new armies by principle, I have to admit they are fun AF to use. Moving them to the castle seems to be a fair compromise.
I don't think I'll even make a War Academy vs FB Russia or Azzy ever again

you gonna try to make do with cav+cav army? i don't think it's too stronk

[Kawapasaka]

As much as I disagreed with the new armies by principle, I have to admit they are fun AF to use. Moving them to the castle seems to be a fair compromise.
I don't think I'll even make a War Academy vs FB Russia or Azzy ever again

you gonna try to make do with cav+cav army? i don't think it's too stronk

Nah not the colonial castle army - FF and spam the fortress one. I've been trying making a castle in colonial as a substitute for CM (requires extremely frustrating building placement and straight-up isn't possible on many maps due to trees/tp line, etc.) and doing a slightly slower FF with it - especially useful on crap crate starts because in these MUs making a transition TP is barely viable. But I sadly learned just today this isn't an option against Aztec because the castle has a negative multiplier against siege troopers and doesn't one-shot Pumas in combination with TC fire as a result. Still would build the castle from 700w though. The brooken army is miles better than anything you can make at the War Academy vs age 2 Azzy, and Russia in most cases too.

[helln00]

isnt the ff castle harmy kind of hard countered by pumas since meteor hammers are abit fragile and changdaos have relatively low melee reisit which is important against pumas which have high base attack

[wardyb1]

What's the point of the negative multiplier vs siege troopers on the castle? Do any other buildings have it? I can't remember.

[harcha]

isnt the ff castle harmy kind of hard countered by pumas since meteor hammers are abit fragile and changdaos have relatively low melee reisit which is important against pumas which have high base attack

it is not a hard counter as the 4 changs are superduper cheap and the 2 meteors have no problem running away. combine this with a small skirm batch and your piki are dead quite quicki

[harcha]

As much as I disagreed with the new armies by principle, I have to admit they are fun AF to use. Moving them to the castle seems to be a fair compromise.
I don't think I'll even make a War Academy vs FB Russia or Azzy ever again

you gonna try to make do with cav+cav army? i don't think it's too stronk

Nah not the colonial castle army - FF and spam the fortress one. I've been trying making a castle in colonial as a substitute for CM (requires extremely frustrating building placement and straight-up isn't possible on many maps due to trees/tp line, etc.) and doing a slightly slower FF with it - especially useful on crap crate starts because in these MUs making a transition TP is barely viable. But I sadly learned just today this isn't an option against Aztec because the castle has a negative multiplier against siege troopers and doesn't one-shot Pumas in combination with TC fire as a result. Still would build the castle from 700w though. The brooken army is miles better than anything you can make at the War Academy vs age 2 Azzy, and Russia in most cases too.

i tried it for a day (see video on page 21) and i came to the conclusion that it is much better to incorporate a blockhouse or a fort in your build rather than make war academy/castle due to defensive abilities and adaptation advantages

[Kawapasaka]

isnt the ff castle army kind of hard countered by pumas since meteor hammers are abit fragile and changdaos have relatively low melee reisit which is important against pumas which have high base attack

Nah, Pumas lose to Changdaos. And their melee resist is the same. Pumas are an excellent pike, but at the end of the day still a pike, and pikes to lose to every other style of heavy infantry. Flails are also worse than normal vs age 2 Azzy; against Skirm-Goon civs they're a solid range resist tank and do decent damage to kiting RI masses with their multiplier but against Aztec your cav really only gets onto the Mace when you've already won the fight regardless. The vital thing is having cav that can do good DPS (Changdao damage is a bit underwhelming against Coyotes) without dying instantly, and now you can avoid making the shitty Flails altogether and replace them a unit that blocks all of Aztec's melee mass efficiently while Meteors whip away safely from behind.

On top of that, China is typically forced to send nothing but unit shipments, making Skirm/Sword batches extra sad since 10 skirms + 8 age up skirms + palace batches already provide all the RI you'll ever need. So really neither the Territorial nor the Forbidden army complements unit shipment spam in mid fortress very well. There's rarely time for mercs either, so the huge anti-cav bolster provided by Manchus is off the table. And lastly, there's the Crow. The last thing you want to protect this is a bunch of squishy skirms you couldn't stop overmaking. Blockers, blockers, and more blockers. Oh, and Coyotes are Aztec's only cardable unit in age 2 and the one they want to be spamming the most, so having a counter-army to that is nice.

So yeah the new army is situationally pretty good. All of this applies to lesser extent vs Age 2 Russia.

[Aizamk]

ur not making enough flamethrowers

[Kawapasaka]

ur not making enough flamethrowers

Even better, Brooken army would complement flamethrowers perfectly as well.

[dansil92]

I'm with aiz on this one, melee deathball is gonna intensify with flames mixed in lol

[helln00]

floating a very dumb idea but, what if iron flails have 2 area range instead of 1, how broken would it be?

it would be essentially half a cuir that is slightly less pop efficient, potentially double range resist and grinds skirms like no tommorow.

[dansil92]

China needs no buffs to its cav

[duckzilla]

China needs no buffs to its cav

Let's concentrate on making spahis trainable at mosque instead

[chronique]

Let's concentrate on making spahis trainable at mosque instead

Trainable irontroop on wonder!!

[harcha]

China needs no buffs to its cav

Let's concentrate on making spahis trainable at mosque instead

tbh i don't see a problem with having spahis trainable in saloon same as ronin for euro civs and troops/jats/yojimbos for asian civs (after the advanced saloon has been sent of course)

[Qosashvili93]

#trainablespahis

[helln00]

China needs no buffs to its cav

I was just comparing in my head whether China is more op if they have RE old han or super cav

[deleted_user]

China needs no buffs to its cav

I was just comparing in my head whether China is more op if they have RE old han or super cav

Super cav. RE old han is OP but games rarely go to a point where the auto-win is in play, but china's FI without it is still insane and very very viable.

[dansil92]

China needs no buffs to its cav

I was just comparing in my head whether China is more op if they have RE old han or super cav

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

@EAGLEMUT did you ever get round to looking at the fattening rate for livestock on the villages yet?

[Mitoe]

What's the point of the negative multiplier vs siege troopers on the castle? Do any other buildings have it? I can't remember.

IIRC it’s because Galleons are siege troopers and supposed to be resistant to building damage.

[iNcog]

Galleons lol. I forgot that unit was even in the game