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Poland pecelot
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28 Nov 2016, 21:11

Imperial Noob wrote:Ultimate civ quirk: Give them resources for destroying buildings (now this is ransack). :devil:
Which resources, what relation with the destroyed buildings' cost would you suggest?

economy: Give their vills an option to transform into a speed 6.75 cavalry (let them swap stances and get a magical steed like horse artillery operator does) to enable them to travel to and from natural resources safer and more efficiently :idea:
That would be pretty OP, since you could just never get raided, also too drastic for EP, given the current way of changing the game.

early economy: Give them finally their due steel traps and a 5 vil shipment :roll:
That's one of the most popular suggestions, but usually not conjoined.

early defense: Let Teepees boost villager HP and let the Chief boost villager speed. :hmm:
It depends on the answer to the question I stated below, but for what would you need villager HP buff if you had them on horses? Perhaps it could work if you just camped in one place with your army and gatherers while letting them tank some of the damage... :hmm:

early offense: Let those bloody bears claw through wooden huts and murder civilians like opris. Blessing them with 30 siege and x1 vs vills would surely make them decent <joke?> 8-)
If you think of it, they're not entirely awful — basically hand cavalry without such a tag sounds pretty good. The main concern here would just be independent from the overall strength factors — usually you don't have that much space in age 2 in your deck, as you have to choose between crates, units (you have a lot of them actually) and upgrades.

military matters:
(imho optional) Let the Warchief receive shipments
Well, if Daimyo can... :mad:

Buff Tashunke Prowlers... poor fellows :sad:
Personally, I have to give them a go, everyone complains about them whereas I see some potential for hidden assaults, think raiding and skirms :hmm: Although I must admit there's certainly a reason for the current state, I'm very inexperienced with Sioux :uglylol:

Nerf Dog Soldiers' HP :mad:
I guess with all the buffs you propose, it may be somewhat necessary :hmm:

Remove RRs' Heavy Cav tag... this is the most modern unit in the game we are talking about...cmon! :|
Agreed! :flowers:

BR Nerf is ok. :flowers:

From a historical point of view the range nerf for Wakinas is more than reasonable. The Sioux widely ignored iron sights and liked to fight point blanc :geek:
There's already a reasonable big complaint about their too little range and powerlessness in general, I don't think it has any chances of succeeding... Also, see below.

Comments in bold.
Although from the historical point of view your remarks are undeniably true, ESOC Patch's main priority is to make the game balanced at first. It's widely know this game is not historically accurate and it feels pretty impossible to make it otherwise and adjusted for multiplayer experience at the same time. Hell, I think that'd be really tough to fix its accuracy on its own, even :!:
Also, do you suggest every single one of these changes? Or just some of them? Implementing all of those would make them even too good I'm afraid.
Ars longa, vita brevis :unsure:
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28 Nov 2016, 22:28

@pecelot
There are recurring opinions floating around about Sioux supposedly lacking the nomadic feel. Equestrian villagers would be a good answer to that; together with the idea of base-swapping and building forward teepeees in contested areas. As for them being resistant to raids... well, maybe not 6.75 then, but for balance purposes around 5.50 ? It's main purpose was to let them get to natural resources faster. Obviously, this was meant to be an idea more for people who are into mods, than for the ESOC Patch Team.

Bear in mind too, bears were a joke.

Now, seriously:
Why would Teepee buffs affect villagers?...exactly for base defense. There are no reliable minutemen, no walls and not many buildings... it would definitely help them to tank some more for their TC and military. As for the Warchief buff saving villagers, it would give the player another intersting role to fit him into.

Wakinas could always be faster, as it was already proposed, the same way as Cetan Bows, who got faster out of nowhere for being underpowered in terms of range.

And ransack... say, 50% of the building's worth in following resources:
stables, caravanserais, corrals, docks, livestock pens, rice paddies, mills and farms in :food:
barracks, blockhouses, monasteries, saloons, fire pits, war academies, warhuts, outposts, houses, villages, shrines, manors, longhouses and markets in :wood:
town centers, trading posts, artillery foundries, siege workshops, forts, noble's huts, consulates, dojos, factories, castles and wonders in :coin:
Let's say walls wouldn't count as a target worth of looting.

As you can see, regular siege would most probably give the Sioux wood for their forward teepees and ham siege would give them coin for more units. That is a decent buff to their eco, isn't it?

P.S Actually the game may have more historical accuracies than it appears to have. :idea:
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Poland pecelot
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28 Nov 2016, 22:42

Imperial Noob wrote:@pecelot
There are recurring opinions floating around about Sioux supposedly lacking the nomadic feel. Equestrian villagers would be a good answer to that; together with the idea of base-swapping and building forward teepeees in contested areas. As for them being resistant to raids... well, maybe not 6.75 then, but for balance purposes around 5.50 ? It's main purpose was to let them get to natural resources faster. Obviously, this was meant to be an idea more for people who are into mods, than for the ESOC Patch Team.
An idea I came up with some time ago was to allow units to run while simultaneously decreasing their HP count. You could, for instance, increase villagers' speed up to 5 for the cost of — let's say — –30% HP.
From the balance point of view, IMO 5.5 is still a bit too much, given the mobility of Sioux army and their response to raids along with constant presence of light cavalry units.


Bear in mind too, bears were a joke.
Of course. I also appreciate the pun ^_^

Now, seriously:
Why would Teepee buffs affect villagers?...exactly for base defense. There are no reliable minutemen, no walls and not many buildings... it would definitely help them to tank some more for their TC and military. As for the Warchief buff saving villagers, it would give the player another intersting role to fit him into.
As for that, I'm not certain it's necessary, the Sioux War Chief is already pretty busy. On the other hand, I cannot really point out any serious drawbacks of such a change, nevertheless, it shouldn't be the reason for a potential implementation, in my humble opinion... :hmm:

Wakinas could always be faster, as it was already proposed, the same way as Cetan Bows, who got faster out of nowhere for being underpowered in terms of range.
True, that's a suggestion I already encountered somewhere in here.

And ransack... say, 50% of the building's worth in following resources:
stables, caravanserais, corrals, docks, livestock pens, rice paddies, mills and farms in :food:
barracks, blockhouses, monasteries, saloons, fire pits, war academies, warhuts, outposts, houses, villages, shrines, manors, longhouses and markets in :wood:
town centers, trading posts, artillery foundries, siege workshops, forts, noble's huts, consulates, dojos, factories, castles and wonders in :coin:
Let's say walls wouldn't count as a target worth of looting.

As you can see, regular siege would most probably give the Sioux wood for their forward teepees and ham siege would give them coin for more units. That is a decent buff to their eco, isn't it?

P.S Actually the game may have more historical accuracies than it appears to have. :idea:
Primarily I meant that the game was inherently unsuited for historical accuracy because of the genre and other obvious factors. Still, though, in areas that could be somewhat right you can spot some crucial mistakes... :!:
Ars longa, vita brevis :unsure:
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28 Nov 2016, 23:56

@pecelot
But then, if the villagers could really "run", why nobody else would? Isn't it even more game-changing than mounted workers?
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29 Nov 2016, 08:19

Mounted vills sounds cool though. A stable requirement would be good for that. As mounted vills from the beginning can be op lol.

And about RR's, would you like to see it as a goon type unit, by removing the heavy cav tag? RR's are a pretty unique units as of now and it would be cool if the change would still keep them pretty unique cavalry. I would rather see their light cavalry tag removed along with their ability to counter cavalry too, but giving them a bonus against all infantry, like a lancer with ranged attack lol. They would be heavy cavalry, would counter infantry and artillery hard, countered by goons and heavy infantry in melee. Decrease their speed a bit. I think it would be a pretty unique cav, and players would still need bow riders and wakinas ( to counter other heavy cavs and goons).
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29 Nov 2016, 08:31

you cant kill RR with melee inf... they just die.
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29 Nov 2016, 08:43

Well, what I meant was when they are snared by heavy melee cavs ( if you remove the cav counter from RR, melee cavs would effectively counter RR) units like pikes, dopples or rods would make quick work of them. Goons would make a short work of them though as RR lack effective hp of melee cav. But they would essentially mow down infantry at range, and artillery. But it would require a good composition from sioux players though, with a good mix of BRs and wakinas.
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02 Nov 2017, 02:53

Just a quality-of-life suggestion for sioux: move one of the teepee cards to age 1 or 3 as sioux's age 2 is pretty crowded with cards.
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02 Nov 2017, 03:22

Darwin_ wrote:Just a quality-of-life suggestion for sioux: move one of the teepee cards to age 1 or 3 as sioux's age 2 is pretty crowded with cards.

The card that lowers TP cost and increases number of TPs to be built I think could potentially be a great age 1 card. Send sort-of like VC. What are your thoughts on this?
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02 Nov 2017, 06:30

JakeyBoyTH wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Just a quality-of-life suggestion for sioux: move one of the teepee cards to age 1 or 3 as sioux's age 2 is pretty crowded with cards.

The card that lowers TP cost and increases number of TPs to be built I think could potentially be a great age 1 card. Send sort-of like VC. What are your thoughts on this?

Inb4 "sioux is becoming an eco civ?!?!? Omg EP sucks"
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20 Jan 2018, 11:03

24% all gathering rates (or even more because it stacks ???) for 300w investment. And a sick defence aswell. Sioux is too op.

Should either bring gathering rate down or cost up.
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20 Jan 2018, 11:23

Rates will be nerfed ye. However I think the problem to me is that their design at the moment is a bit of a joke. They're supposed to be a nomadic civ but in fact they're one of the most campy.

What about:
- keep 5 vill buff
- keep teepee range buff
- keep cetan buff and BR nerf
- "mustang" card cost discount for cav from 10% to 15%

- revert teepee HP to 300 but the cost now is 25w.
- remove eco boost from default and add it to the "green" teepee card (as well as increasing the teepee limit to 12). Eco boost will be 4% non stackable.
- add a gathering boost to 6% (+2%) with the "blue" teepee card as well as unlocking the attack boost (% can be tweaked for HP and attack if needed).
- remove the ability to build teepees with infantry units by default. Give it back to the "aggressive policy" card.
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20 Jan 2018, 14:11

I like this current sioux:

Ship bisons:
50% chance they walk to tiipiis and you gather them with 25-100% boost
50% change they walk away and you get no boost

best stuff ever!
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20 Jan 2018, 14:25

Garja wrote:Eco boost will be [...] non stackable.

As far as I'm aware, this is not something we can technically do; aside from making it impossible to build teepees within range of each other.

Stay tuned for new beta iteration coming this weekend, we're trying out a thing where teepees cannot be built within range of the starting TC, in order to promote nomadic play.
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20 Jan 2018, 15:43

What can't you do, unlock eco boost from card?

And Jesus Christ who keeps coming with those shit ideas, seriously. Teepees are indeed meant to make the TC safer, that's why Sioux don't have walls.
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20 Jan 2018, 15:58

remove the eco boost from teepees lol keep the inf building teepees, they shouldnt be for eco lol
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20 Jan 2018, 16:01

Garja wrote:
And Jesus Christ who keeps coming with those shit ideas, seriously.

+1
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20 Jan 2018, 16:02

Garja wrote:What can't you do, unlock eco boost from card?

Can't make aura not stack.
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20 Jan 2018, 16:08

Is it a property of teepees?
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20 Jan 2018, 16:37

Garja wrote:Is it a property of teepees?

A property of auras.
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20 Jan 2018, 16:43

Ok. Well then we have to drastically reduce the effect of each teepee or put a max cap so that the total effect is never more than 30-40%. Anything more than that is completely retarded considering that age3 eco cards are 25% and Sioux is not even a boomy civ.
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20 Jan 2018, 16:52

The attack buff from different daymios doesn't stack tho as far as i am aware :hmm:
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21 Jan 2018, 13:36

somppukunkku wrote:24% all gathering rates (or even more because it stacks ???) for 300w investment. And a sick defence aswell. Sioux is too op.

Should either bring gathering rate down or cost up.


24% for 300 w is about as good as steel traps.
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21 Jan 2018, 13:57

yurashic wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:24% all gathering rates (or even more because it stacks ???) for 300w investment. And a sick defence aswell. Sioux is too op.

Should either bring gathering rate down or cost up.


24% for 300 w is about as good as steel traps.

but its also for gold, wood and sick defence. and steel traps for sioux would be op.
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21 Jan 2018, 14:06

gamevideo113 wrote:The attack buff from different daymios doesn't stack tho as far as i am aware :hmm:

Nice catch! I've checked and it indeed doesn't stack; looks like auras do have an option to make the bonus exclusive.
Still not sure if the balance team will utilize this, since the original idea was making it stack to a certain amount. This would be either on or off at all times.
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