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Russia yurashic
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21 Jan 2018, 15:05

somppukunkku wrote:
yurashic wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:24% all gathering rates (or even more because it stacks ???) for 300w investment. And a sick defence aswell. Sioux is too op.

Should either bring gathering rate down or cost up.


24% for 300 w is about as good as steel traps.

but its also for gold, wood and sick defence. and steel traps for sioux would be op.


This buff only works in a certain radius, defence compensates for having no minutemen.

I don't say Sioux are bad, I think they are OP, but I think what should be nerfed is the army and not the economy. Basically Sioux have good army and bad economy. They lose because most civs can survive their pushes and eventually have a bigger mass. Now Sioux have both good army and good economy, so they can produce more of their strong units. I suggest either nerfing the warchief (maybe no snare, maybe less hp in age 2 and age 3, he tanks like crazy), nerfing axe riders (they are like old uhlans) or nerfing age 3 shipments, one of these changes.
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Italy Garja
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21 Jan 2018, 16:06

Sioux and ottomans are supposed to be that way tho. They don't have a competitive eco later on so they need to damage opponent's one instead. They tried to redesign the two civs but it isn't really working.
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Austria KINGofOsmane
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21 Jan 2018, 16:09

agree with garja they are all in civs and should stay that way
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Russia yurashic
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21 Jan 2018, 16:28

The problem is that all in does not work in the current meta and everyone stops playing these civs again if you limit their eco options.
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Italy Garja
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21 Jan 2018, 16:38

With small buffs classic gameplay can work just fine. Sioux got 5v plus some other cards can be buffed. Otto got the mosque buff.
Obviously other civs need to be changed to achieve overlal balance. French/Germans have been nerfed already. Dutch needs 4 bank limit back. Brit needs a moanor nerf, etc.
Great Britain WickedCossack
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21 Jan 2018, 16:40

They seem competitive now which is cool but I don't know about OP? I still think they struggle vs turtle civs but it seems everyone still wants to rush them or semi FF fre?
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Italy Garja
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21 Jan 2018, 16:43

Sioux don't even struggle anymore vs turtle because with teepees mechanics they can boom just as good (and are np switching to farms/plants either). Also water has been nerfed.
Otto are not OP. The problem is more the opposite because ther units are now underwhelming.
Great Britain WickedCossack
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21 Jan 2018, 17:31

Garja wrote:Sioux don't even struggle anymore vs turtle because with teepees mechanics they can boom just as good (and are np switching to farms/plants either). Also water has been nerfed.


From the games I've played against Sioux I haven't really found this to be the case at all but I shall defer to the mighty Garja.
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Italy Garja
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21 Jan 2018, 17:41

Stagecoach semi into 1k wood?
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United States of America Hidddy_
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21 Jan 2018, 17:46

Garja wrote:With small buffs classic gameplay can work just fine. Sioux got 5v plus some other cards can be buffed. Otto got the mosque buff.
Obviously other civs need to be changed to achieve overlal balance. French/Germans have been nerfed already. Dutch needs 4 bank limit back. Brit needs a moanor nerf, etc.

This. Small changes was the objective of the EP. Dutch and British nerfs should definitely be implemented to level the playing field and avoid having to buff every other civ to their level.
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France Kaiserklein
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21 Jan 2018, 18:15

Sioux is just OP now...
- Can't ever raid them because of BR and warchief speed. Can't really scout them for the same reason
- On a lot of maps, can't take TPs/go fb against them, because of OP pets
- Can't ever push in their base because of the teepees, especially since cetans and BR are strong when they just sit and shoot
- Can't ever take the risk to hunt/mine without defending with army/buildings
- Can't really reach the point where they get cav combat dog big button after 18 min (unless you hurt them enough before)
- Can't ever try to run around the map/base trade etc
- Can try to turtle with some civs, but on a map with stagecoach sioux will be perfectly fine and contain

On top of that, their semi just dominates most other semis because of BR being (still) really strong, the ability to drop a warhut middle map and ship units inside directly upon fortress, and their scary fortress age up time.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Brazil lemmings121
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22 Jan 2018, 10:13

Kaiserklein wrote:Sioux is just OP now...
- Can't ever raid them because of BR and warchief speed. Can't really scout them for the same reason
- On a lot of maps, can't take TPs/go fb against them, because of OP pets
- Can't ever push in their base because of the teepees, especially since cetans and BR are strong when they just sit and shoot
- Can't ever take the risk to hunt/mine without defending with army/buildings
- Can't really reach the point where they get cav combat dog big button after 18 min (unless you hurt them enough before)
- Can't ever try to run around the map/base trade etc
- Can try to turtle with some civs, but on a map with stagecoach sioux will be perfectly fine and contain

On top of that, their semi just dominates most other semis because of BR being (still) really strong, the ability to drop a warhut middle map and ship units inside directly upon fortress, and their scary fortress age up time.


tbf, most of this is still present in RE.
Imo if we were to change sioux, I would go for reverting part of the ep buffs (teepees, i'm looking at you), just because sioux is already very diferent from re, and making it even more diferent doesnt sound right for a balance patch.

but actually they seem good but not super op. we are used to playing vs ports or vs japan that we know you just can't do whatevershit you want, you actually need to counter the civ before it gets out of control. Maybe we need to just get a bit more used to playing vs new to sioux before going "it counters semiff, better nerf it"
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France Kaiserklein
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22 Jan 2018, 13:32

lemmings121 wrote:tbf, most of this is still present in RE.
Imo if we were to change sioux, I would go for reverting part of the ep buffs (teepees, i'm looking at you), just because sioux is already very diferent from re, and making it even more diferent doesnt sound right for a balance patch.

Yeah of course Sioux had a lot of these strengths on RE, but they also had big weaknesses. The main ones being the lack of answer to a timing push in their base (because no mm and no good inf unit), and the low eco. Which is why the civ was "broken" on RE: some OP features (BR, dog soldiers, the mobility, etc etc) and some huge weaknesses I mentioned.
Now, they don't have the weaknesses anymore. Instead of being the civ that can't hold a timing, it is now the civ whose base can't be timing pushed. And with 5 vils + teepees, their eco is definitely fine. Is Sioux more balanced/less broken on EP than on RE? Maybe. But the result is still not convincing imo. I think the teepees need to be nerfed: the eco boost is probably fine, but the hp boost is too much atm, it makes Sioux a camper civ.

lemmings121 wrote:but actually they seem good but not super op. we are used to playing vs ports or vs japan that we know you just can't do whatevershit you want, you actually need to counter the civ before it gets out of control. Maybe we need to just get a bit more used to playing vs new to sioux before going "it counters semiff, better nerf it"

Sioux doesn't just counter semi ff now. It counters rushes, atp (because of very often being able to deny TPs with explo and pets), turtle if they have a decent stagecoach available, and semi ff yeah.
I don't think we have much to learn about how to counter them. You need to play vs Sioux in the same way as you do on RE, except you can't rush them anymore, and you can't outscale them as easily.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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No Flag Aizamk
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22 Jan 2018, 13:40

Assuming a TP map for Stronkest Sioux, I still think Brits and Dutch can fare decently against them, depending on the map, but only because they don't need to push Sioux in age II to win and can boom hard enough behind it. It's still tough as Brits though, you need pioneers in deck.
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Italy Garja
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22 Jan 2018, 14:01

Brits and Dutch are two civs that needs a nerf (prob India too) and they still don't cut it imo. Sioux can be played with full cav, that's something to remind even in age3 with speedy wakinas.
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Italy gamevideo113
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22 Jan 2018, 14:30

Nerf dog soldier big button?
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Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
Great Britain Hazza54321
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22 Jan 2018, 14:38

remove hero snare would be a good start lol, an 8 speed 1.5khp unit snaring ur army whilst all their units are annihalating yours, also makes age 1 less of a rape
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22 Jan 2018, 15:08

Garja wrote:Stagecoach semi into 1k wood?


yeah, the fact that TC's now cost 500w is really good for sioux actually. 1000w gets them 2 tc's exactly, while before it was always a little bit awkward. and then you can just spam 99vils really quickly, it's never have been much of a problem to boom, the problem was trying to break multi layers of walls when pathing is fucking shit.
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Spain Snuden
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22 Jan 2018, 15:14

I want to change my ESOC name to "Sitting Snu"
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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France kami_ryu
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22 Jan 2018, 20:48

somppukunkku wrote:I like this current sioux:

Ship bisons:
50% chance they walk to tiipiis and you gather them with 25-100% boost
50% change they walk away and you get no boost

best stuff ever!


hearthstone rng awesome
thanks RK
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New Zealand zoom
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31 Jan 2018, 01:22

My suggestion to change Sioux for EP5:

– Teepee default gather-rate aura (with a base of 4%, stackable) removed. All auras' range reduced from 24 to 18. Hitpoints decreased from 800 to 500.
– "Aggressive Policy" home-city shipment changed from +2pp gather-rate aura effect to activating attack aura and all auras' range increased from 18 to 24.
– "Friendly Territory" home-city shipment changed from activating attack aura to activating gather-rate aura (with a base of 5%, stackable) within range 18 for each Teepee.
– Nomadic Expansion changes reverted (build limit increase restored from 6 to 10).

Resulting in the following changes from RE:

– "4 Villagers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Villagers.
– Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
– Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
– Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
– Teepee base hitpoints increased to 500 (up from 300); build limit decreased from 10 to 6; now buildable by War Hut units. Base (hitpoints) aura range increased from 12 to 18.
– "Aggressive Policy" home-city shipment no longer allows War Hut units to build Teepees; now instead activates attack aura and increases all auras' range from 18 to 24.
– "Friendly Territory" home-city shipment no longer activates attack aura. Now instead adds a gather-rate aura (with a base of 5% within range 18, stackable) to each Teepee.

As opposed to:

Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
4 Villagers home-city shipment removed.
5 Villagers home-city shipment added to the Colonial Age (note: added as a separate shipment, not a changed version of the 4 Villagers one — has to be unlocked manually).
Teepee base hitpoints increased to 800 (up from 300).
Teepee gather rate aura boost added (4% per Teepee, range 24).
Teepee hitpoints aura maximum range increased to 24 (up from 12).
War Clubs’, Cetan Bows’ and Wakina Rifles’ ability to build Teepees by default added.
Aggressive Policy home-city shipment effect changed — increases the Teepees’ gather rate aura boost to 6% (up from 4%).
Teepee build limit decreased to 6 (down from 10).
Nomadic Expansion home-city shipment effect changed — increases Teepees’ build limit by 6 (down from 10).
Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
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Germany QueenOfdestiny
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31 Jan 2018, 02:36

I don't understand
shit juice :hmm:
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France Kaiserklein
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31 Jan 2018, 03:15

@zoom what would prevent sioux from being trash like they are on RE with your changes?

On most maps, teepees don't actually bring you a ton of resources, since at some point there are no more res in range of your teepees. I didn't do the maths, but I don't think the extra resources you got from your teepees, until the point where no more resources are in range, is huge. It's probably around 1000-1500 resources at minute 10, for an investment of 6 teepees (300w). And 5% makes the resources come in a bit faster, but at the end of the day, the amount of extra resources you got is unchanged.
Who would invest a shipment into that? It means you would need to destroy your bo to send that card, that actually would take really long to (barely) pay off, compared to a standard crates shipment for example. Plus, you can't start building teepees in transition to colo, since you need to send that card. So you start enjoying your teepees a bit late.
And what if you get rushed? Can you afford to send that long-term card? Probably not. Can you defend a strong rush without teepees (same situation as on RE, but with weaker BR and stronger cetans)? Probably not. So Sioux would probably still be too weak against strong musk rushes.

What makes teepees really good atm is that your base (and later on, your resources) becomes way harder to push, while your build becomes slightly faster. They're not too good because they give an insane eco boost. So why remove that feature? And on top of -1 vil, too.

I think the new Sioux design is fine. We just need to tweak the numbers. The hp boost definitely needs to be reduced. The gathering boost could probably be 3%. Just tweak the numbers, basically. But it needs testing.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Great Britain Hazza54321
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31 Jan 2018, 11:33

Kinda like zooms changes but with 5 vill
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New Zealand zoom
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31 Jan 2018, 11:42

queenofdestiny wrote:I don't understand
The first paragraph is the changes I'm proposing. The second is what the total difference would be from RE to EP5. The Third is what the difference is, currently.

Is there anything in particular I can help explain?
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