Sioux Discussion Thread

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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Darwin_ wrote:Controversial opinion: RE iro is overrated (especially within today's meta)

No they're not overrated at all.
The 4 kanya rush is overrated, and some civs could win by just playing defensively. But RE Iro semi ff builds would just rape everything.
I'm not sure you realize that even 7 uhlan semi ff gets demolished by Iro semi ff on the RE, and the ger semi ff is like the best semi ff in the game.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

I was drunk and streaming and losing and so I made my first Iro home city. I titled it "fuck you" and queued into RE qs and matched with a Japan player and got happy I said this "is ez win Iro is just OP and Suckpan." I proceeded to stagecoach eco FF and got big blasted. Big rips here.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Controversial opinion: RE iro is overrated (especially within today's meta)

No they're not overrated at all.
The 4 kanya rush is overrated, and some civs could win by just playing defensively. But RE Iro semi ff builds would just rape everything.
I'm not sure you realize that even 7 uhlan semi ff gets demolished by Iro semi ff on the RE, and the ger semi ff is like the best semi ff in the game.

Are you talking about the 4 kanya + BB semi-ff?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Ashvin »

@Darwin_ do you even play dude? I dont see you online on discord or eso
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Does this give me legitimation for playing Iro on QS without feeling ashamed of myself? :hmm:
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stupid logic. noob players can say op?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Darwin_ wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Controversial opinion: RE iro is overrated (especially within today's meta)

No they're not overrated at all.
The 4 kanya rush is overrated, and some civs could win by just playing defensively. But RE Iro semi ff builds would just rape everything.
I'm not sure you realize that even 7 uhlan semi ff gets demolished by Iro semi ff on the RE, and the ger semi ff is like the best semi ff in the game.

Are you talking about the 4 kanya + BB semi-ff?

For example. Honestly you can do anything with RE iro, you could cav semi too.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Are you talking about the 4 kanya + BB semi-ff?

For example. Honestly you can do anything with RE iro, you can go for a 9kanyas semi ff too and age at 8min with 25v, a rax and a stable up and spam unit shipments+units and just win.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:
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Very few people play Iro on RE, they must be weak right?

This is irrelevant since there is no RE tourney. If tourneys were hosted on the RE I can tell you half of the top players would play Iro lol.


I should have remembered sarcasm doesn't work on the internet unless you include /s
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
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This is irrelevant since there is no RE tourney. If tourneys were hosted on the RE I can tell you half of the top players would play Iro lol.


I should have remembered sarcasm doesn't work on the internet unless you include /s

I know it is sarcasm and you mean that very few people play Iro on the RE while they're OP and compare it to Sioux.
Well my point is that they aren't played coz no tourneys.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

This is irrelevant since there is no RE tourney. If tourneys were hosted on the RE I can tell you half of the top players would play Iro lol.


I should have remembered sarcasm doesn't work on the internet unless you include /s

So you wanted to say everyone plays iro on RE? Because thats the part that was being replied to.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

momuuu wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes


I should have remembered sarcasm doesn't work on the internet unless you include /s

So you wanted to say everyone plays iro on RE? Because thats the part that was being replied to.


No, I was responding to this.
iwillspankyou wrote:If they where to strong, then I would expect more ppl to play them.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

forgrin wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

So you wanted to say everyone plays iro on RE? Because thats the part that was being replied to.


No, I was responding to this.
iwillspankyou wrote:If they where to strong, then I would expect more ppl to play them.

Well I got the sarcasm, and you wanted to give an example which shows that the best civs aren't the most played civs.
My point is that the reason Iro isn't the most played civ is because tourneys are hosted on the EP and not on the EP.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

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Post by momuuu »

I still dislike everything the team has done to sioux, its a result of pure bias and arbitrary reasoning and the civ is rather poorly designed in its current state.

EP starts out as a project to simply balance the civs as they are and not change to many things. Yet it is also decided that 'sioux is simply broken'. Much reasoning is never given for this. Id say goodspeed just didnt like the civ and decided to label it 'broken' for that reason (refer to his civ guide where he didnt write anything on sioux).

RE Sioux is indeed weird: they are super reliant on bow riders in everything they do. Does that make a civ broken though? Dont many civs rely on skirmishers in most match ups? Isnt it the case that spain often only has one viable strat (FF)? You can definitely dislike this aspect of a civ, but it doesnt make them broken. Sioux was a civ that you could play just fine, so they werent broken. The design has been a bit odd but a game like aoe3 can have a few very odd civs in the mix for the sake of diversity; after all there are already many variations on standard civs that semi ff into some skirm goon composition.

There might be some 'broken' aspects to sioux balance wise, but those dont seem BR related: no minutemen makes a civ weak defensively. Aztec and Iro compensate for this by being generally pretty aggressive. Sioux isnt aggressive, and thus struggles a bit much against timing pushes. The BB is a bit odd: if the game is even then eventually the BB turns into a free I win button - balancing around this is very complicated. They also dont have any artillery which makes it hard and frustrating to deal with extreme turtling.

If you'd consider sioux broken, you'd look to fix these things. At least, thats what seems logical to me. Instead, the nerf to bow riders made sioux struggle even more against early HI pushes. In order to make up for this, cetans needed serious buffs. However, sioux is one of the few cavalry oriented civs thus buffing cetans destroys their uniqueness. Aware of this, the EP team tried to solve this abominable state of sioux by giving them a new defenders advantage: teepees. The idea surely is creative and does prove to be somewhat effective. To actually make teepees worthwhile they needed to make them into mini karni matas. The next problem arose: resources like bisons might walk away from them, plus sioux turned into a passive civ with infantry, while its charm has always been a cav oriented raiding civ.

The design of sioux on EP is terrible. Theyre just another semi FF civ but you have to get lucky with resources being nice and close to eachother for effective teepees. Oh and stackong teepees was to strong so they have some weird placement restriction.

Im still wondering what was wrong with BRs. Yes, theyre were a bit of a counterall, but a very aggressive BR AR compisition doesnt seem boring to me. It sounds fun. I want to run around with super raid forces trying to catch my opponent out of position and kill villagers. I dont want to spam teepees in my base so that I can hold off rushes, while going age 3 for skirm play like every other civ.

Bring back sioux please and remove this abomination!
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

momuuu wrote:
RE Sioux is indeed weird: they are super reliant on bow riders in everything they do.


not to take away from the rest of your post, but that part isn't true. RE sioux isn't that reliant on BR at all. Sure, they're a great unit, on RE they're probably even OP. But sioux can easily win games without them, and in fact, in quite a few mu's making BR is what will lose you the game, especially since many strats ppl use vs sioux are specifically designed to counter BR. Bow pike works quite well vs br for example, but gets decimated by AR Wakina RR. when I played sioux on RE i didn't make BR in the 75% of my games. I usually went wakina AR.


Imo sioux never needed 5 vils, or karni mata tp's, at least not as standard, perhaps as a late game eco card it wouldve been fine. BR were too strong, and the nerf was fine imo, they're still a great unit regardless. Cetan buff wasn't necessary I think, but not bad either, cetans were really quite bad. Teepees just needed to be buffed in what they did, increase unit hp. making them cheaper and increasing the radius would've sufficed.

you can defend vs infantry rushes in many ways, you can drop a warhut in transition, which is good vs russia for example, as tc + warhut fire one shots all their infantry. with teepees and 4 cav first you can hold easily vs 5 cossack 5 musk or 10 strelet. after that it's a matter of 700c or making BR or whatever. vs some slower timings in age2 you can just straight ff and win with teepees + shipments and whatever you can squeeze out of warhut or rax. vs many other civs that are strong with eco you can raid and run around and don't fight a straight up fight but instead pick them a part one at a time. rafuuu style basically. very strong, and actually something people don't do enough. the only thing sioux was really kinda weak against was vs walling + tower with ranged infantry behind. but even vs that there are things to be done, such as booming 99 vils quickly, taking stagecoach and do a dog timing etc etc. weaker walls kinda fixed this on EP anyway, and the fact that sioux can now actually do a decent water boom also counter acts that a little.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

I'd rather have ep sioux than re sioux. re sioux were just the most retarded civ ever. Basically you'd lose most match ups (especially on esoc maps) so you instead had to run around and hope you kill vils or catch units to make up for your shitty eco. And you just made a ton of BRs because they were op. I don't see how that's interesting.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Then that's simply not your playstyle.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

It's not about playstyles lol. It's just that RE sioux basically relied on people playing sloppy. At a perfect level (which is the level at which we're trying to balance) sioux would essentially always lose. But by running around and abusing a broken unit, you might be fine and win if your opponent makes mistakes (losing vils etc). It's just stupid.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:
RE Sioux is indeed weird: they are super reliant on bow riders in everything they do.


not to take away from the rest of your post, but that part isn't true. RE sioux isn't that reliant on BR at all. Sure, they're a great unit, on RE they're probably even OP. But sioux can easily win games without them, and in fact, in quite a few mu's making BR is what will lose you the game, especially since many strats ppl use vs sioux are specifically designed to counter BR. Bow pike works quite well vs br for example, but gets decimated by AR Wakina RR. when I played sioux on RE i didn't make BR in the 75% of my games. I usually went wakina AR.

That'd even reincorce my point and I agree to some extend. I just assumed the EP team was correct in considering bow riders extremely strong in everything sioux would do.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:It's not about playstyles lol. It's just that RE sioux basically relied on people playing sloppy. At a perfect level (which is the level at which we're trying to balance) sioux would essentially always lose. But by running around and abusing a broken unit, you might be fine and win if your opponent makes mistakes (losing vils etc). It's just stupid.

Then adress that part, instead of removing the civ and creating another weird semi ff civ. On RE I used to play sioux sometimes because I could have fun with bowriders and raiding. On EP sioux is just another semi ff civ. There is little incentive to learn how to play them as they'll just play out the same as civs I already can play. The result of EP has been to remove what made sioux sioux and replace that by a typical civ with very weird mechanics (teepees).

With 14 civs its completely fine that some civs are weird. It becomes a waste if all 14 civs play out the same but with a different skin.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:It's not about playstyles lol. It's just that RE sioux basically relied on people playing sloppy. At a perfect level (which is the level at which we're trying to balance) sioux would essentially always lose. But by running around and abusing a broken unit, you might be fine and win if your opponent makes mistakes (losing vils etc). It's just stupid.


perfect play never happens, and sioux wouldn't lose all the mu's at all. on re there was only 1 real insta loss mu for sioux and that was vs india. they have chances in all the other mu's, not better or worse than most other civs.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

This is not true, sioux is far from being just another semi ff civ.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the EP fixed sioux in the best way possible. Just saying it's still less dumb than RE sioux, which was at the same time trash and easy/broken.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It's not about playstyles lol. It's just that RE sioux basically relied on people playing sloppy. At a perfect level (which is the level at which we're trying to balance) sioux would essentially always lose. But by running around and abusing a broken unit, you might be fine and win if your opponent makes mistakes (losing vils etc). It's just stupid.


perfect play never happens, and sioux wouldn't lose all the mu's at all. on re there was only 1 real insta loss mu for sioux and that was vs india. they have chances in all the other mu's, not better or worse than most other civs.

Perfect play is what we base the balance on. You can't take mistakes into account if you want to balance a game.
Maybe you're talking about qs sioux. I'm talking about RE sioux on esoc maps (or any decent map actually). Don't tell me they're decent there.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:This is not true, sioux is far from being just another semi ff civ.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the EP fixed sioux in the best way possible. Just saying it's still less dumb than RE sioux, which was at the same time trash and easy/broken.

Im mostly generelazing and the main point Id like to make is that the decision to nerf bow riders by that much forced the team down a very shitty balancing/redesigning path.

RE sioux is not dumb. They might not be a civ you enjoy, but theyre very unique and definitely offer something that the game doesnt offer otherwise. No theyre not literally the same as france, but they lost most of the truly unique features and it generally feels like they fit right in with many semi ff civs.

They lost what makes them a change of pace from all the standard stuff. Thats sad, especially when aoe3's meta could use some civs that are a change of pace.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It's not about playstyles lol. It's just that RE sioux basically relied on people playing sloppy. At a perfect level (which is the level at which we're trying to balance) sioux would essentially always lose. But by running around and abusing a broken unit, you might be fine and win if your opponent makes mistakes (losing vils etc). It's just stupid.


perfect play never happens, and sioux wouldn't lose all the mu's at all. on re there was only 1 real insta loss mu for sioux and that was vs india. they have chances in all the other mu's, not better or worse than most other civs.

Perfect play is what we base the balance on. You can't take mistakes into account if you want to balance a game.
Maybe you're talking about qs sioux. I'm talking about RE sioux on esoc maps (or any decent map actually). Don't tell me they're decent there.


but if perfect play never happens, how can we know what perfect play is? perhaps if people would play better, suddenly we would find ways to win with sioux that previously havent even been imagined. sioux doesnt lose many mus with perfect play. in fact if a person with perfect play would play sioux, they would probably be one of the most dominant civs in the game on land tp maps. the sioux army is unbeatable in the midgame

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