Sioux Discussion Thread

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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gh0st »

is this jerom ^ ?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

gh0st wrote:is this jerom ^ ?


No. I don't know who Jerom is tbh.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

SIOUX REDESIGN IDEAS:

SIOUX BUILDING REQUIREMENTS: Isn't it weird that Sioux buildings cost wood when they are mostly made of animal hides for the most part? Especially the TC and the teepes should cost all food, as they are all hides basically.

REGARDING TCs: Make the TCs cheaper and faster to build and weaker as well. And give TCs the original teepee hitpoints aura within a large radius. Remove the gathering aura. The overall affect of the aura increasing depending upon how many teepees are built on the map. That gives the player an incentive to expand and make new TCs and have a good nomadic feel to the civ. While still having the aura to defend the base when attacked. Also the base hunting gather rate for the sioux villagers can be increased as they will need more food now, for the teepees as well as the TCs. They can start with hunting dogs already researched.

REGARDING TEEPEESS: Increase the LOS of teepees making them more as an early warning structures against raids, that can be cheaply thrown around on the periphery of the base. This could serve as a nice alternative to having walls. Also, you can build them around the villagers mining far away from base and the villagers will have more time to react to raids. As the sioux units are fast and can handle raids faster if they see it coming. No walls needed. And also make a few bisons spawn around TC, every few minutes or so, depending upon how many teepees are built on the map. Less teepees, lees bison spawn.

CARDS: Nomadic expansion card, further decreasing the cost of TCs and teepees and making them slightly weaker. Friendly territories card adding attack aura to TCs and also speed aura to the villagers. Aggressive Policy letting the warhut units build buildings, increase buildings attack range and LOS but also making them slightly weaker still. Improved buildings card make the buildings more resistant to siege units like cannons as such. Move the Great Hunter card to age 1.

MILITARY CHANGES:

1. TC BIG BUTTON. Ship 3 Dog soldiers for every TC built by the player. 1500 food will be hard now because of the TC and teepees food requirements. This will further set a general direction for the way the civ is played. Rewarding when played in a more nomadic expanding style.

2. TASHUNKES: Make them trainable by the WC from the colonial age, like Chinese disciples. Better at raiding villagers and siege than anything else giving them a specialized role. Numbers of tashunkes trainable increasing with age, also their stats.

3. BOW RIDERS: Add a negative multiplier to Bow Riders against villagers, like all other ranged cav.

4. RIFLE RIDERS: Remove rifle riders light cav tag, and their bonus against Cavalry as well. Sioux already have BRs and they scale really well. Give the rifle riders bonus against only light infantry and artillery. Give them ranged resistance rather than hand resistance as their range isn't good. They would still be hard countered by goons as well as other melee cavalry, as well as musks, pikes and such in melee. Sioux would have a good way to deal with skirms this way from range, as they lack any siege like falcs, and as wakinas are not upto the par. And it makes less sense continue boosting wakinas as they are mainly cav centered civ.

5. CETAN BOWS: Cetan Bows are pretty okay now. Their attack range can be made better against structures. Just would give a nice way to safely go at structures from afar, with the siege dance past fortress age, especially if the opponent walls in and turtles.

Sioux would still need BR to deal with cavalry, and Axe riders being the main cav for the sioux like Hussars. Tashunkes focused on raiding and sieging. Rifle riders more specialized, and especially, when the opponent goes heavy on siege and light infantry. Dog soldiers well, they are what they are. Their hitpoints can be decreased slightly tho.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

A really bad suggestion:

What if tashunke got a bonus vs dragoons?
:hmm:
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

I think tiipii being eco and mili building is dumb. Could maybe slightly buff cetans as compensation for tiipii change. OK balance-wise
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I agree, teepees are a bit too good. We wanted to give Sioux an eco option, but the 16 min timing is still the only way to play the civ.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

somppukunkku wrote:I think tiipii being eco and mili building is dumb. Could maybe slightly buff cetans as compensation for tiipii change. OK balance-wise
At least in its current design, it's certainly been looking that way, for a long time. However well-intended, in hindsight, it seems ill-conceived, relying on assumptions false in practice, its execution exacerbating the problems.

Unless, of course, players remain somehow mistaken, years later, and dumping Epees on top of your Town Center is suboptimal ā€“ in which case I'd be even more concerned, by the realization that they are even stronger than we think!

Do you think Cetans would warrant further buffs?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

SiegeDance wrote:REGARDING TCs: Make the TCs cheaper and faster to build and weaker as well. And give TCs the original teepee hitpoints aura within a large radius. Remove the gathering aura. The overall affect of the aura increasing depending upon how many teepees are built on the map. That gives the player an incentive to expand and make new TCs and have a good nomadic feel to the civ. While still having the aura to defend the base when attacked. Also the base hunting gather rate for the sioux villagers can be increased as they will need more food now, for the teepees as well as the TCs. They can start with hunting dogs already researched.
Generally speaking, I think you've some interesting ideas, but that, for the most part, they are too radical or unviable.

400w Town Centers for native civilizations might be an interesting buff to TWC civilizations, especially in light of them lacking minutemen.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Sioux lategame options
Since sioux has little to no options in the industrial age

Mustangs - Cavalry costs -10% and is trained in 15% less time

Onikare - Dog Soldiers get +1.0x multiplier against infantry and take 20% less time to be produced from the fire pit - Moved to the Industrial Age
To put into perspective: A dog soldier trains in 500 VS and is worth 300c according to the game. The fire pit dance is basically worth 0.6 gold per second. Technically itā€™s better than a plantationā€™s base gathering rate. In practice you spawn units very slowly so it doesnā€™t feel very viable.
With this change DS could be trained in 16 seconds instead of 20 with a full fire pit.

Sioux tepees

Buildable by warhut units, cost 50w, 600hp, range 18, boost hp and attack by 4-5%, build limit 5

Aggressive Policy - Deleting a tepee grants the building cost back to the player, building speed increased
Allows an actual aggressive policy, because you can delete tps where you don't need them and build them back where the fight is happening.

Friendly Territory - Aura effect increased to 24 and HP increased to 800
Not much to explain.

Nomadic Expansion - Teepees cost -50% and build limit increased to 10
10 teepees with a stacking 5% attack and hp might be too stronk, so maybe 4% or 3% would be better. The actual numbers are obviously up for debate.

Sioux eco options

Great Hunter - Villagers gather from natural resources 15% faster
No point in this being an exact copy of spice trade, which is basically steel traps for the cost of a colonial shipment. I'd rather turn it into a sort of eco theory that applies to natural resources only, which resonates well with the spirit of the civ. Alternatively it could be moved to the discovery age with an effect of 10%.

Potentially thereā€™s also always the 2 bisons per shipment option, which was proposed quite often but never implemented

Sioux big button

Cost 1200f - Ships 3 Dog Soldiers for every 10 minutes of the game time (up to 30 minutes)
The infamous 15 minutes timing with 5 dog soldiers is no longer available. You either have 3 at 10 minutes or 6 at 20 minutes. I would also suggest a cost reduction because overall i don't feel like the big button at 15 minutes was a steal in terms of cost efficiency, 300f for a dog soldier is alrighty. It probably just synergized too well with the rest of the civ.

Any kind of feedback/opinion is welcome
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

gamevideo113 wrote:Sioux lategame options
Since sioux has little to no options in the industrial age

Mustangs - Cavalry costs -10% and is trained in 15% less time

Onikare - Dog Soldiers get +1.0x multiplier against infantry and take 20% less time to be produced from the fire pit - Moved to the Industrial Age
To put into perspective: A dog soldier trains in 500 VS and is worth 300c according to the game. The fire pit dance is basically worth 0.6 gold per second. Technically itā€™s better than a plantationā€™s base gathering rate. In practice you spawn units very slowly so it doesnā€™t feel very viable.
With this change DS could be trained in 16 seconds instead of 20 with a full fire pit.

Sioux tepees

Buildable by warhut units, cost 50w, 600hp, range 18, boost hp and attack by 4-5%, build limit 5

Aggressive Policy - Deleting a tepee grants the building cost back to the player, building speed increased
Allows an actual aggressive policy, because you can delete tps where you don't need them and build them back where the fight is happening.

Friendly Territory - Aura effect increased to 24 and HP increased to 800
Not much to explain.

Nomadic Expansion - Teepees cost -50% and build limit increased to 10
10 teepees with a stacking 5% attack and hp might be too stronk, so maybe 4% or 3% would be better. The actual numbers are obviously up for debate.

Sioux eco options

Great Hunter - Villagers gather from natural resources 15% faster
No point in this being an exact copy of spice trade, which is basically steel traps for the cost of a colonial shipment. I'd rather turn it into a sort of eco theory that applies to natural resources only, which resonates well with the spirit of the civ. Alternatively it could be moved to the discovery age with an effect of 10%.

Potentially thereā€™s also always the 2 bisons per shipment option, which was proposed quite often but never implemented

Sioux big button

Cost 1200f - Ships 3 Dog Soldiers for every 10 minutes of the game time (up to 30 minutes)
The infamous 15 minutes timing with 5 dog soldiers is no longer available. You either have 3 at 10 minutes or 6 at 20 minutes. I would also suggest a cost reduction because overall i don't feel like the big button at 15 minutes was a steal in terms of cost efficiency, 300f for a dog soldier is alrighty. It probably just synergized too well with the rest of the civ.

Any kind of feedback/opinion is welcome
I agree, completely, with Sioux lacking viable late-game options. In fact, AoE3 late game balance is poor, in general. Unfortunately, since everything but basic inter-civ balance has been largely neglected, until now, there is tons to do, and it simply isn't a realistic priority, at this time. I hope to address it, more specifically, in the future.

I think buffing Mustangs, Onikare and the hunting shipments is reasonable. Although I don't think your particular Teepee buffs are ideal, I agree that current Epees are not, either; I'm working on it! Bisons per shipment was implemented with ASFP. I think the major problem with it, is that it marginalizes bison shipments.

I'm not sure what to do about the "Sioux Dog Soldiers" Big Button technology ā€“ if anything. It's always seemed an "I win (or lose)"-button, though, serving to underscore the effective design of the civilization (with its lack of viable late-game options).
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

zoom wrote:I agree, completely, with Sioux lacking viable late-game options. In fact, AoE3 late game balance is poor, in general. Unfortunately, since everything but basic inter-civ balance has been largely neglected, until now, there is tons to do, and it simply isn't a realistic priority, at this time. I hope to address it, more specifically, in the future.

I think buffing Mustangs, Onikare and the hunting shipments is reasonable. Although I don't think your particular Teepee buffs are ideal, I agree that current Epees are not, either; I'm working on it! Bisons per shipment was implemented with ASFP. I think the major problem with it, is that it marginalizes bison shipments.

I'm not sure what to do about the "Sioux Dog Soldiers" Big Button technology ā€“ if anything. It's always seemed an "I win (or lose)"-button, though, serving to underscore the effective design of the civilization (with its lack of viable late-game options).

Sioux IV definitely not a priority since it's hardly ever seen.
Not a huge fan of bisons with every shipment either tbh.
Teepees are indeed tricky. Not sure if enabling an economical usage of teepees is the right way to go or if they should just be used with military purposes. Anyway there are tons of ways to design them and their cards, so i might try to think about a way to keep their economical use intact as an alternative to my previous proposition.

If anything the BB is making the civ rather mono-dimensional. I would change it in any case. If you wanna keep the "x dog soldiers every y minutes until 30 minutes) i think my suggestion is the best way to go. The alternatives would be:
1 dog every 3 minutes (current)
1 dog every 5 minutes (weak)
2 dog every 5 minutes (stronger than current)
2 dog every 10 minutes (weak)
3 dogs every 10 minutes (acceptable)
4 dogs every 15 minutes (you'd only have 2 possible time lapses to click it and i think this hurts the scaling of the big button)

EDIT: I guess also 2 dogs every 6 minutes could be fine.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

honestly this teepee nonesense is broken lol
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

the more i think about it, the proposed changes are going to make it worse
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Hazza54321 wrote:honestly this teepee nonesense is broken lol
n0el wrote:the more i think about it, the proposed changes are going to make it worse
This concern was voiced by players when teepees were introduced and I definitely put forward my concerns internally as well. The problem with introducing fundamental civilization changes like these is that EP does not have a sufficiently large and professional team. There are simply not enough players actively testing changes and there never will be in this game. Teepees should have never been touched. While the goal might be good, the means of getting there are impossible to achieve currently.

This is made evident by the fact that Iroquois was rated the 3rd worst civilization at the start of 2019. This poll was held on the same patch that the current tournaments are being played on where Iroquois is considered the #2 civ behind Germans if not the top civ. The game is not active enough to have a clear overview of civilization's strengths.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

boohoo, sioux win almost half of their games now. What a shame
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Stop being so biased please
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

iwillspankyou wrote:boohoo, sioux win almost half of their games now. What a shame
It's not about Sioux winning games. It's about Sioux being forced into a boring strategy that allows them to turtle in base and remain unharmed while running around with an extremely mobile army.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

@Mr_Bramboy i agree, and i think if we played on the same patch for a couple more years, it would shift again, especially if the maps change.

as for the sioux change, i would rather leave the teepee aura the same for eco, and nerf it for HP and nerf their hitpoints as well.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:boohoo, sioux win almost half of their games now. What a shame
It's not about Sioux winning games. It's about Sioux being forced into a boring strategy that allows them to turtle in base and remain unharmed while running around with an extremely mobile army.
I would like to see some statistics though, before judging Sioux OP. Can you provide that, and it shows that Sioux win more than 50% of the games in 1v1 - then I will be on board, or listening to the "nerf Sioux" again. AS of now, I do not see them winning THAT MUCH :P
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:It's not about Sioux winning games
iwillspankyou wrote:I would like to see some statistics though, before judging Sioux OP. Can you provide that, and it shows that Sioux win more than 50% of the games in 1v1 - then I will be on board, or listening to the "nerf Sioux" again. AS of now, I do not see them winning THAT MUCH :P
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:boohoo, sioux win almost half of their games now. What a shame
It's not about Sioux winning games. It's about Sioux being forced into a boring strategy that allows them to turtle in base and remain unharmed while running around with an extremely mobile army.
I would like to see some statistics though, before judging Sioux OP. Can you provide that, and it shows that Sioux win more than 50% of the games in 1v1 - then I will be on board, or listening to the "nerf Sioux" again. AS of now, I do not see them winning THAT MUCH :P
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

cmon, I like to see some numbers, not Kaiserkleins or Hazza "feel on it"
I would guess sioux win 40%. And for some ppl that is toooooo much :hehe:
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

I mean I'm not gonna bother arguing if you don't even read the posts... You're the only one talking about winrates here
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:boohoo, sioux win almost half of their games now. What a shame
It's not about Sioux winning games. It's about Sioux being forced into a boring strategy that allows them to turtle in base and remain unharmed while running around with an extremely mobile army.
I would like to see some statistics though, before judging Sioux OP. Can you provide that, and it shows that Sioux win more than 50% of the games in 1v1 - then I will be on board, or listening to the "nerf Sioux" again. AS of now, I do not see them winning THAT MUCH :P
Your post shows an incredibly naive understanding of statistics. In a game that uses randomized matchmaking exclusively, winrates will always be relatively consistent across the entire playerbase because of how matchmaking moderates the players who are matched against each other. If civ X suddenly gets a nerf, an X player who had ~1800 elo before the nerf with a ~50% winrate becomes an X player with ~1750 elo and a ~50% winrate. Automated, rating-based matchmaking means almost the entire playerbase will always have the same winrate, almost completely regardless of balance. Using winrates across a playerbase with automated matchmaking as evidence makes literally no sense. In AoE3, we're dealing with the unfortunate (in my opinion) situation of the absence of randomized matchmaking. The only way to actually find games on EP is to host a lobby and pick a civilization, map, and most importantly, opponent. For this reason it's useless to even start arguing about winrates on EP as they don't tell even the smallest part of the story.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I would like to see some statistics though, before judging Sioux OP. Can you provide that, and it shows that Sioux win more than 50% of the games in 1v1 - then I will be on board, or listening to the "nerf Sioux" again. AS of now, I do not see them winning THAT MUCH :P
Your post shows an incredibly naive understanding of statistics. In a game that uses randomized matchmaking exclusively, winrates will always be relatively consistent across the entire playerbase because of how matchmaking moderates the players who are matched against each other. If civ X suddenly gets a nerf, an X player who had ~1800 elo before the nerf with a ~50% winrate becomes an X player with ~1750 elo and a ~50% winrate. Automated, rating-based matchmaking means almost the entire playerbase will always have the same winrate, almost completely regardless of balance. Using winrates across a playerbase with automated matchmaking as evidence makes literally no sense. In AoE3, we're dealing with the unfortunate (in my opinion) situation of the absence of randomized matchmaking. The only way to actually find games on EP is to host a lobby and pick a civilization, map, and most importantly, opponent. For this reason it's useless to even start arguing about winrates on EP as they don't tell even the smallest part of the story.
I would like to z some stastistics anyway, on EP. I kind of loath this saying that Sioux suddenly got so OP. It is not true, in my experience
anyway. Maybe you can prove me wrong?
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