Ottomans Discussion Thread

[bwinner]

its easy and bad so your argument is kinda invalid, anyway ill wait for someone whos not biased against otto to continue discussing, bye.

My argument is totally valid.
You're suggesting to improve the quality of life of a civ which is already too easy to play. It makes no sense. Ideally, all the civs should be as hard to play.

Furthermore, it would also buff the civ (because it's +1 vill when you get housed and you could abuse that in your build order), which is not only unnecessary but also underserved.

You ship 3v when you have 7 if you have a church+TP, so you will 10/10 and it will be trash (unless if you wait to ship them but it's trash as well).
Though I agree that it's part of ottoman's macro to not skip vils. It's not hard in most cases when you are used to so it wouldn't buff otto anyway.

Though I have an idea that would be great to help otto : make all the villager up from church age 1.
The main reason is to give a use to your wood on 400w start in no TP map, because it's too trash curently. You could also produce more than 70vils in age 3, which is more debatable but makes sens for me (Idk why you should be forced to go age 4).

[Kaiserklein]

Otto is strong. And please don't remove one the only remotely "hard" things in otto macro.

[Hazza54321]

Ive only seen otto being remotely strong on 4+ tp maps

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ive only seen otto being remotely strong on 4+ tp maps

3 TP in the middle of the map is already enough.

[Kaiserklein]

Even with just 1-2 TPs you can get insane timings. The follow up isn't great but if the timing hurts enough it's fine

[bwinner]

What do you think of the idea I have proposed @Diarouga @Kaiserklein ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

What idea?

[Kaiserklein]

I don't think having more mosque ups in age 1 is relevant

[GiBthedurrty]

bwinner best otto

[bwinner]

I think you are underating it a lot @Kaiserklein
I did some computation about it : both pay off in 5minutes and if you have the 2 ups, you are really goona get much more stuff later. So since it's for free on non TP+wood start, it's really good.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah looks like it's worth getting. But is it better than getting a market and hunting dogs? Cause that's usually what I do as otto with a wood start on no tp, and we don't need to add another change if the market works fine already. Though you do need to get 50g for that, but its usually not a problem.
Looking at your sheet, by 144s (=2:24, which is approx when otto clicks up to colo), the second mosque upgrade would bring you an insane 18 extra VS... So like 15 food. Hunting dogs brings you definitely more like 50f or so.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, I quite sure market+HD is better.

[bwinner]

Yeah looks like it's worth getting. But is it better than getting a market and hunting dogs? Cause that's usually what I do as otto with a wood start on no tp, and we don't need to add another change if the market works fine already. Though you do need to get 50g for that, but its usually not a problem.
Looking at your sheet, by 144s (=2:24, which is approx when otto clicks up to colo), the second mosque upgrade would bring you an insane 18 extra VS... So like 15 food. Hunting dogs brings you definitely more like 50f or so.

Hunting dogs indeed brings more. Not as much as you said though, cuz it's otto so not that many vils, so it's not gonna matter much for the age up time, especially if you need to chop gold+the VS to build market. And then it's gonna be better to have the mosquee up (+it costs less)
(4min are is breaking time here but it's even earlier in reallity cuz I assumed every vils on food here while you prob will switch some to other ressources depending on your plan)

[deleted_user0]

Could we consider giving abus guns 1 pop slot in imperial?
Otto was already quite a terrible treaty civ. With abus and jan nerf it's even worse. Abus is not really usable at that point because it eats all your population pop. And they don't do vs goons any better than skirms.

Affects like 2-5% otto games depending on playstyle.

[Garja]

I'd go with 2nd mosque up over market regardless of what math says. The fact you don't have to macro vills around multiple resources (which btw means lost gathering time) is enough. Also I think market is super overrated in general in current meta.

[bwinner]

I'd go with 2nd mosque up over market regardless of what math says. The fact you don't have to macro vills around multiple resources (which btw means lost gathering time) is enough. Also I think market is super overrated in general in current meta.

Yes, and maths say it's better to go 2nd mosque up in almost anycase anyway so... Is there any argument against this change ?

[Garja]

what change, I meant with current costs

[bwinner]

what change, I meant with current costs

make 2nd market up avaliable in age 1. I don't see other options to make ottomans playable on wood start+no TP map

[Kaiserklein]

It's no tp so you have more time to find treasures, so most of the time you don't have to mine for hunting dogs. And then you get at least 50f from it before aging up, which speeds up the whole build. Then you also have a market btw, which means you can trade resources (if you go double rax jan, you can ship 700g first and buy some wood for housing since you dont need all the gold for your timing anyway). Can even get steel traps if you're going to spam mostly jans. It's a decent eco alternative to tps, and pays off faster than stuff like the second mosque up for sure.

[Garja]

Well basically I'd go for w/e doesnt' require moving vills, altho I'm pretty sure having faster vills helps more when you chop wood and gold.

[Kaiserklein]

Yea I mean I wouldn't ever chop 50w or mine 50g as otto obviously. Just saying if you have decent coin treas on a wood or coin start, which you usually do especially when not building a tp, market is way superior to 2nd mosque up.

[deleted_user0]

Otto's need a (very) late game upgrade.

It's already weak in treaty, abus being 2 pop and nerfed it just eat all your population and you can't really spam them. Which makes you to struggle vs goon/skim/culv badly....

[[Armag] diarouga]

Otto's need a (very) late game upgrade.

It's already weak in treaty, abus being 2 pop and nerfed it just eat all your population and you can't really spam them. Which makes you to struggle vs goon/skim/culv badly....

You should ask the treaty team, this is the wrong forum for this.

[deleted_user0]

So discussing about games that go further than 15 mins means you should move to treaty forum? Ok diarouga, cool.

Fuck turtle strats. Let's just make a TTM for skirm-goon next tournaments. Fuck all strats in general.

[[Armag] diarouga]

So discussing about games that go further than 15 mins means you should move to treaty forum? Ok diarouga, cool.

You mentionned treaty in your post, and the games never go to super late game. The EP isn't balanced for treaty anyway.

Otto doesn't deserve a late game buff. You dominate in colonial and fortress because you have super fast timings, but in late game you struggle, that's the deal.
If you couldn't get an advantage in early game (you really should get something most of the time), then you deserve to lose in late game.

Furthermore, the Otto late game isn't that bad, you have a very strong jan/huss composition and the strongest artillery in the game. Abus guns are also very strong. If you don't like it, then just go musk/huss like brit.

Otto isn't a turtle civ lol. You can't have everything, it's already one of the most versatile civs :
jan rush
jan/huss rush
jan/abus
ff
water boom
fi