Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:can we cut the bias and revamp this civ please, jans are so bad atm and their eco is also too shit to compensate
Cutting bias is my favorite pastime. We could buff the civilization, if players want to. After the LAN, we'll figure out what to do. Incidentally, what would you do?
:flowers:

In an effort to clarify, Janissary cost was buffed from 100f, 25c to 90f, 25c, and hitpoints nerfed from 235 to 210. This was done to address the issue that the vast majority of competitive Ottomans games were Janissary-based all-ins, in promotion of build and unit diversity.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

(bear in mind im mostly talking about teamgames but some refers to 1v1 also) a civ thats relied on a musk type unit as their main force, and it gets nerfed. Both of ottos core units in age 2 were nerfed (nerfing arguably ottos only skillful thing of jan abus micro) , also with the jan combat buff + 2 range abus and 500w tcs and better mosque it just promotes otto as a age 3 or age 4 civ. Jans are the backbone of ottos army and yet they feel so weak, sure you come with the argument that theyre cheaper but if you claim theyre similar in strength to their cost then you wouldnt have a problem reverting back to RE jans
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:can we cut the bias and revamp this civ please, jans are so bad atm and their eco is also too shit to compensate
Cutting bias is my favorite pastime. We could buff the civilization, if players want to. After the LAN, we'll figure out what to do. Incidentally, what would you do?
:flowers:

In an effort to clarify, Janissary cost was buffed from 100f, 25c to 90f, 25c, and hitpoints nerfed from 235 to 210. This was done to address the issue that the vast majority of competitive Ottomans games were Janissary-based all-ins, in promotion of build and unit diversity.

Patch team can't consider 1 point => this kind of changes are too much and this change basicly nerfed ottos very much.. Can you believe that uhlans kill jans right now ? Jans are just losing hard in musk wars and hardly does well against cav, basicly patch team is nerfing the only real unit otto has, it's just sad that these kind of changes are being done without testing the outcomes at all.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by princeofkabul »

yeah i feel ottoman were changed essentially to be an fortress civ by these changes, and the all ins are still there. just worse unit but easier to mass more of them and the skill for that is still nonexistant.

I can't provide a solution for it because honestly I don't know. I dislike that jan abus play for timings have been reduced and now it's more of jan all ins or jan hussar all ins strats, because honestly going hussars in colonial seems like lot better option than abus guns.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Re stats and x2.5 against cav,
#trainableSpahi
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

It's full bullshit, ep jans are not weaker than re jans.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

then you should have no problem with reverting to RE
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

not sure whether RE jans or EP jans are stronger and better for balance. Otto is fine in 1v1 honestly, and their style is pretty much the same. Those fortress TC/mosque based builds already existed on RE. In team EP otto should be better because you can play a bit more economically and can spam jans a bit easier. Also they have 20% combat card on EP.
The only thing strictly worse is abus change. ROF is simply very annoying imo.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

deleted_user wrote:Patch team can't consider 1 point => this kind of changes are too much and this change basicly nerfed ottos very much.. Can you believe that uhlans kill jans right now ? Jans are just losing hard in musk wars and hardly does well against cav, basicly patch team is nerfing the only real unit otto has, it's just sad that these kind of changes are being done without testing the outcomes at all.

1 jan kills 1 uhlan easily, and the jan is much cheaper. It's not fair to say uhlans beat jans.

From my experience jans are situational, they're good vs ranged inf (harder to kite them since they have high hp), at idling and sieging, and whenever they get to melee stuff. Other than that they're not incredible. I think it's a quite average musk unit.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I think a musk type unit with a unique name skin and cost should be better than an (average musk unit) jans are actually terrible musk vs musk, aswell as low damage in melee and in range vs cavalry. They really only have high hp. Theyre also pretty bad at picking off anti cav .
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Kaiserklein wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Patch team can't consider 1 point => this kind of changes are too much and this change basicly nerfed ottos very much.. Can you believe that uhlans kill jans right now ? Jans are just losing hard in musk wars and hardly does well against cav, basicly patch team is nerfing the only real unit otto has, it's just sad that these kind of changes are being done without testing the outcomes at all.

1 jan kills 1 uhlan easily, and the jan is much cheaper. It's not fair to say uhlans beat jans.

From my experience jans are situational, they're good vs ranged inf (harder to kite them since they have high hp), at idling and sieging, and whenever they get to melee stuff. Other than that they're not incredible. I think it's a quite average musk unit.

Not talking about individually, You can Just watch hazza's stream from yesterday and see how jans die against uhlans, normally they should do better against cav while in melee mode, but since their hp is nerfed, they just perform worse.. am i mistaken?
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jans are just fine as they are. On the RE they were too strong, almost as good as sepoys.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

I prefere the design of ep Jans. They are about thƩ same in strenght but the fact they cost less increases the build diversity.
The 2 nerfs for otto are abus age 2 and mams shipment. This are good nerf in the sens that Jan/abus age 2 and mams timing are still viable but not the only possible strats.
Then I agree with prince, otto is more late game oriented on ep because all changes go in this direction. At the moment I am even wondering if it's not broken to go 3 TC late game blindly.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

With 500w TCs and mosque buffs otto booming style is insanely boosted. In fact any sort of fast FF into 3TCs is pretty damn good on EP. And it's probably even better with a stagecoach jan abus semi.
In fact TCs give cover for raids while jan abus (especially age3) remains pretty dominant in straight up battles. Because all timings are shifted onward unusual cards like art and CA ups become more viable making otto even better.
On top of that Otto still have plenty of underused options such as all the other merc cards.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

One thing that has always eked as slightly unfair for ottomans in the current meta, otto being picked heavily on New England for example, is that abus guns are so powerful vs boats while other civs are either forced to make culvs or ship boats to deal with boats in the pond. Maybe adding a negative multiple vs boats would be something to look into?
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well abus being op vs boats really comes into play only on new england. Whenever boats can stay away from the shore, abus aren't very scary. So I don't think it's a problem, especially since NE is realistically barely played outside of the nwc.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:(bear in mind im mostly talking about teamgames but some refers to 1v1 also) a civ thats relied on a musk type unit as their main force, and it gets nerfed. Both of ottos core units in age 2 were nerfed (nerfing arguably ottos only skillful thing of jan abus micro) , also with the jan combat buff + 2 range abus and 500w tcs and better mosque it just promotes otto as a age 3 or age 4 civ. Jans are the backbone of ottos army and yet they feel so weak, sure you come with the argument that theyre cheaper but if you claim theyre similar in strength to their cost then you wouldnt have a problem reverting back to RE jans
How is the Janissary nerfed, though? By all accounts, other than the first Colonial Age push, it should be buffed.

To me, additional options to a Janissary-based all-in being more viable is a good thing.

Actually, you might! Because ā€“ like I mentioned in my previous post ā€“ the RE Janissary limits both build diversity and our ability to meaningfully balance the civilization. The question to me is: To what extent?

As is the case for many past changes, I have little to nothing to do with them, myself. Ideally, the individuals arguing for this change, in the past, would attempt to defend it, in the present.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

deleted_user wrote:
zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:can we cut the bias and revamp this civ please, jans are so bad atm and their eco is also too shit to compensate
Cutting bias is my favorite pastime. We could buff the civilization, if players want to. After the LAN, we'll figure out what to do. Incidentally, what would you do?
:flowers:

In an effort to clarify, Janissary cost was buffed from 100f, 25c to 90f, 25c, and hitpoints nerfed from 235 to 210. This was done to address the issue that the vast majority of competitive Ottomans games were Janissary-based all-ins, in promotion of build and unit diversity.

Patch team can't consider 1 point => this kind of changes are too much and this change basicly nerfed ottos very much.. Can you believe that uhlans kill jans right now ? Jans are just losing hard in musk wars and hardly does well against cav, basicly patch team is nerfing the only real unit otto has, it's just sad that these kind of changes are being done without testing the outcomes at all.
It's just sad that you have such a propensity for spewing nonsense, elsewhere and here. It isn't helping. Most of all, it isn't helping you.

With that said, it is possible that the hp nerf changes a breakpoint vs the Uhlan. The only break-point that was considered here is that of fully garrisoned Town Centers. That is fine to me, considering the fact that the Uhlan is nerfed, and that the Janissary is buffed, past the early game. Regardless, buffing Janissary cavalry & light infantry multipliers could be good, seeing as Abuse Guns are less broken, now.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Riotcoke wrote:One thing that has always eked as slightly unfair for ottomans in the current meta, otto being picked heavily on New England for example, is that abus guns are so powerful vs boats while other civs are either forced to make culvs or ship boats to deal with boats in the pond. Maybe adding a negative multiple vs boats would be something to look into?
First, the Abus Gun is already nerfed. Second, I'm frankly not concerned with balancing civilizations for specific maps (let alone ones with obvious design flaws), but I'm happy to look at whether this change might be merited, in general.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:(bear in mind im mostly talking about teamgames but some refers to 1v1 also) a civ thats relied on a musk type unit as their main force, and it gets nerfed. Both of ottos core units in age 2 were nerfed (nerfing arguably ottos only skillful thing of jan abus micro) , also with the jan combat buff + 2 range abus and 500w tcs and better mosque it just promotes otto as a age 3 or age 4 civ. Jans are the backbone of ottos army and yet they feel so weak, sure you come with the argument that theyre cheaper but if you claim theyre similar in strength to their cost then you wouldnt have a problem reverting back to RE jans
As is the case for many past changes, I have little to nothing to do with them, myself. Ideally, the individuals arguing for this change, in the past, would attempt to defend it, in the present.
@Hazza54321 Most of them were made with the goal of making Otto less one-dimensional. We saw that colonial jan or jan/abus timings or fortress jan/falc or jan/falc/mam timings were the only builds Otto players were using.

The jan change nerfs the unit specifically in the context of all ins, buffs it otherwise.

The abus change nerfs the unit because otherwise, combined with the other changes, it would become too dominant. The ROF change was chosen to retain the unit's uniqueness and increase the amount of micro needed in the Otto composition. It also makes sense for abus to take longer to reload given they are carrying a siege weapon and have very high damage.
The reason for the +2 range in fortress is because otherwise, with the ROF nerf, they felt too weak against skirmishers.

The mosque changes were to give Otto non-all-in options, and improve them slightly on non-TP maps.

But considering Otto is still not played much it seems likely that there's still some work to be done here.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

What do you think about moving the upgrade that increase villager limit to earlier age @zoom ? I find it really anoying when you get 70 settler in age 3 and you aren't in a position to age up->you just lose. The problem is you get relatively fast to this limit when you build 3 TC, but if your opponent just does the same and you fall into a long age 3 war, you won't be in a position to age up at 70s most of the time, so you will lose cuz your opponent will continue to increase his economy and you can't. I would still like to make the 125w up for villager speed training age 1 for viability of otto on non TP map, but it seem like it's not an option for you guys :/
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

There's one!

Like I've said, before, I do agree with the premise that Janissary all-ins were too prominent, itself. The Mosque changes are great, in every way I can tell. Please keep in mind that the Mamelukes nerf is a big disincentive to Fortress play.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

bwinner1 wrote:What do you think about moving the upgrade that increase villager limit to earlier age @zoom ? I find it really anoying when you get 70 settler in age 3 and you aren't in a position to age up->you just lose. The problem is you get relatively fast to this limit when you build 3 TC, but if your opponent just does the same and you fall into a long age 3 war, you won't be in a position to age up at 70s most of the time, so you will lose cuz your opponent will continue to increase his economy and you can't. I would still like to make the 125w up for villager speed training age 1 for viability of otto on non TP map, but it seem like it's not an option for you guys :/
I think both are changes worth making, unless I'm missing something. Even with my slow mind, I feel like I should have thought of it, myself.

Let's gather some more feedback, for the beta.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

so youre admitting youre trying to turn otto into yet another eco based civ, havent we got enough of those lol, even changed sioux from a nomad low eco op unit civ into a campy eco civ that doesnt leave base.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

I think the intent is to turn it into less of an all-in based civilization.

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