Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:so youre admitting youre trying to turn otto into yet another eco based civ, havent we got enough of those lol, even changed sioux from a nomad low eco op unit civ into a campy eco civ that doesnt leave base.

Sioux with the teepees in base defo feels stupid, but idk what's wrong with ep otto. It's still an aggressive civ, it just doesn't have to be all in anymore.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Seems maybe too strong on 4-5 tp. Okay otherwise, don't know how to fix.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Otto is just reasonable on 4-5 tps map. A lot of civ can counter them, the problem is everyone want to execute his build in isolation without adopting and then cry about it.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Otto is a bit dumb yea. They probably don't deserve a nerf but it's really annoying because the civ is so easy.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Can we remove the +2 range in age 3 for abus?
It's dumb to be honest. It really feels like you can't counter the unit in age 3 because skirm/goon gets rekt and you can't really make cav against a jan mass. Also abus are too good at sniping the falcs.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Can we remove the +2 range in age 3 for abus?
It's dumb to be honest. It really feels like you can't counter the unit in age 3 because skirm/goon gets rekt and you can't really make cav against a jan mass. Also abus are too good at sniping the falcs.

NO. There is no reason to nerf otto atm. Moreover it's not that strong cuz abus/br is not rly viable in late game due to pop consideration and jan/abus still has its problem (no mobility, still quite costly in pop and very weak to cav/skirm).
Tbh if you remove this, it will be impossible to ever go late game as otto and you can just resign to any turtle style.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Otto is overpowered on big TP maps. Also, being the easiest civ in the game, it should be slightly weaker than the other harder civs on low TP maps because playing a difficult civ should always be rewarded.

Furthermore, otto wouldn't even be bad in late game, even without abus. You have a very strong musketeer unit, and a strong hand cav. Abus with normal range would still be good by the way, just not broken. I'd say that Otto would still be better than Brit in late game to be fair, which is fine.
Currently, with 20 range abus, it feels impossible to beat Otto in middle/late game with civs like Port because you have no way to deal with that unit. It's the same with France in middle game actually. It feels impossible to beat jan/abus/falc because your skirms die in no time to abus/falcs, you can't use culverins to counter the falcs because of abus and goons get annihilated by jan/abus.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

abus are stupid good currently. they also shit on india in late game. 19 ranged gurkhas, and shit cavalry. your only hope is urumis but they dont do much vs jan/abus with falcs and mams
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Otto is overpowered on big TP maps. Also, being the easiest civ in the game, it should be slightly weaker than the other harder civs on low TP maps because playing a difficult civ should always be rewarded.

Furthermore, otto wouldn't even be bad in late game, even without abus. You have a very strong musketeer unit, and a strong hand cav. Abus with normal range would still be good by the way, just not broken. I'd say that Otto would still be better than Brit in late game to be fair, which is fine.
Currently, with 20 range abus, it feels impossible to beat Otto in middle/late game with civs like Port because you have no way to deal with that unit. It's the same with France in middle game actually. It feels impossible to beat jan/abus/falc because your skirms die in no time to abus/falcs, you can't use culverins to counter the falcs because of abus and goons get annihilated by jan/abus.

jan and huss are nothing special, and this is a composition that suck in late game. You won't ever make me think that otto would be viable with jan/huss composition in late fortress.
It would never be an option to switch to abus guns if they weren't strong considering the investment it represents to make foundry+vet up+infinite amount of time to mass abus.
For 3 things :
-brit just rapes ottomans on any map with less than 3 TP stagecoach and it's still close otherwise (I am sure you know it)
-fr can very well match late fortress with otto because : they have more eco if otto doesn't take an early advantage in early age 3 and you forgot to mention cuirs which ottomans struggles a lot to deal with with your compo. Skirm/goons/cuirs match very well otto and that's very easy to go for it as fr.
-yeah portos can't have a good compo vs otto, but they have much more eco in most cases+that's not a problem they have vs otto, their unit lose to the units of any other civ just as well. The problem is not abus here, it's cassadors.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

People dont make enough cav vs otto
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

+2 range abus should be the guard tech, even makes sense as it costs more than a normal guard tech.
However i would like Re abus back.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:People dont make enough cav vs otto

Sure, make cav and get 4 mam'd
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:+2 range abus should be the guard tech, even makes sense as it costs more than a normal guard tech.
However i would like Re abus back.

+2 range should definitely be at least industrial.
If we remove the ROF nerf, we'd need to nerf their attack or HP. RE abus would be too strong.

By the way, EP fortress abus are better than EP fortress abus.
Otto ff is arguably as strong as it was on the RE ie op.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.

This is a ridiculous argument to nerf a civ just because 1 player has won a few games with it. Removing the 2 range from the vet tech would instantly nerf otto to worst civ in the game by far. They already lose the majority of their MU Imo so that's very stupide to nerf them and moreover this nerf is especially stupide cuz it would just make otto more dumb. Cutting any late game solution for otto would just bring them back to only rely on all in timming like on RE (exept this timming have received huge nerfs so otto would just suck).
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.

This is a ridiculous argument to nerf a civ just because 1 player has won a few games with it. Removing the 2 range from the vet tech would instantly nerf otto to worst civ in the game by far. They already lose the majority of their MU Imo so that's very stupide to nerf them and moreover this nerf is especially stupide cuz it would just make otto more dumb. Cutting any late game solution for otto would just bring them back to only rely on all in timming like on RE (exept this timming have received huge nerfs so otto would just suck).

It just shows how op the civ is.
Playing otto shouldn't be a free ticket to beat any top player in the game.

I'd still pick Otto on HP/Arizona/Klondike anyday with +2 range moved to industrial, and we'd still see a lot of Otto in tourney.
Finally, they'd still get that +2 range in industrial so it wouldn't affect their late game.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

I've said since the start that abus are ridiculously OP, and the rof nerf isn't enough. And yeah when you add 2 range as well it's stupid. I wish we'd just nerf this dumb unit. Give otto a buff to compensate, idc
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
bwinner wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.

This is a ridiculous argument to nerf a civ just because 1 player has won a few games with it. Removing the 2 range from the vet tech would instantly nerf otto to worst civ in the game by far. They already lose the majority of their MU Imo so that's very stupide to nerf them and moreover this nerf is especially stupide cuz it would just make otto more dumb. Cutting any late game solution for otto would just bring them back to only rely on all in timming like on RE (exept this timming have received huge nerfs so otto would just suck).

It just shows how op the civ is.
Playing otto shouldn't be a free ticket to beat any top player in the game.

I'd still pick Otto on HP/Arizona/Klondike anyday with +2 range moved to industrial, and we'd still see a lot of Otto in tourney.
Finally, they'd still get that +2 range in industrial so it wouldn't affect their late game.

-I also won games vs top players with other civs such as russia or brit, it's just I play most of my games with otto atm, so yeah I won more with otto
-I am sure you wouldn't. You didn't even pick them on NE for the tourney.
-What do you do between your early age 3 timmings and 15minutes you will need to set an eco, go age 4, get vet abus, guard abus and mass 20 of them ? Now way you sruvive for so long. Currently it's alreay very tricky to do the abus switch in age 3 (you need to buy tons of time with a jan/falc compo), there is no way you do if you need to go age 4 in addition.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

They need abus to be strong and tbh theyre not even that strong in colonial. Hence why jan huss is being more common for timings
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Jan huss is common because 1) it's a bit faster 2) you can force a fight 3) you don't have to worry about tc sniping abus 4) you can catch raids. But when you don't have to be that aggressive, and can be content to just contain your opponent while having the stagecoach, abus are still insane. Way stronger than any other otto unit in a fight.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

@bwinner You're the only guy who dares to argue that otto isn't Op in a tournament setting. They win almost all their MUs lol.
Let's take a 3TP map and list the MUs (considering tournament settings it should be 4-5 but well).

India : Can't deal with abus, Otto wins unless you overcommit.

China : This one is close, but not China favoured. You can Jan/abus, revolt etc...

Japan : Another close one. Jan/abus and FF are still scary.

Iro: Can't counter abus in colonial, can't get away with an age up, EZ4Otto. Otto can even FF btw.

Aztec : I tried everything but it looks like you just can't beat a FF nor a well micro'd Jan/abus.

Sioux : I'm not sure about this one anymore but I think Otto should win.

Spain : Watch kaiser vs garja. Garja played well, didn't matter. Hazza vs rapha is painful too although Hazza slightly misplayed.

Dutch : Just FF, kill one bank, and Jan/abus/falc with 3 TPs wins.

France : bwinner vs rouga or rouga vs Soldier, not even close.

Germany : The only MU you lose, but Germany Op.

Brit : Close one, but not easy for brit.

Port : FF, Port can't deal with abus, GG.

Russia : Easy for botto.

So in the end, you only lose one match-up, and win more than half.
Otto is "one of the weakest civs"? xD
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:@bwinner You're the only guy who dares to argue that otto isn't Op in a tournament setting. They win almost all their MUs lol.
Let's take a 3TP map and list the MUs (considering tournament settings it should be 4-5 but well).

India : Can't deal with abus, Otto wins unless you overcommit.

China : This one is close, but not China favoured. You can Jan/abus, revolt etc...

Japan : Another close one. Jan/abus and FF are still scary.

Iro: Can't counter abus in colonial, can't get away with an age up, EZ4Otto. Otto can even FF btw.

Aztec : I tried everything but it looks like you just can't beat a FF nor a well micro'd Jan/abus.

Sioux : I'm not sure about this one anymore but I think Otto should win.

Spain : Watch kaiser vs garja. Garja played well, didn't matter. Hazza vs rapha is painful too although Hazza slightly misplayed.

Dutch : Just FF, kill one bank, and Jan/abus/falc with 3 TPs wins.

France : bwinner vs rouga or rouga vs Soldier, not even close.

Germany : The only MU you lose, but Germany Op.

Brit : Close one, but not easy for brit.

Port : FF, Port can't deal with abus, GG.

Russia : Easy for botto.

So in the end, you only lose one match-up, and win more than half.
Otto is "one of the weakest civs"? xD

Sioux beats botto.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

I'd rather play vs ger than vs fr as otto
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:@bwinner You're the only guy who dares to argue that otto isn't Op in a tournament setting. They win almost all their MUs lol.
Let's take a 3TP map and list the MUs (considering tournament settings it should be 4-5 but well).

India : Can't deal with abus, Otto wins unless you overcommit. They can just camp and wait. I believe otto wins overall because there have several scary options that are hard to deal with as india but it's definitly not that ez

China : This one is close, but not China favoured. You can Jan/abus, revolt etc...China wins for sure. Especially if you go jan/abus lol. Then they can just ff and age 2 jan/abus get absolutly anilated by skirms/cav

Japan : Another close one. Jan/abus and FF are still scary.I agree this one is probably close

Iro: Can't counter abus in colonial, can't get away with an age up, EZ4Otto. Otto can even FF btw.They can nacked ff to counter jan/abus and get away with it, I think it's a close one

Aztec : I tried everything but it looks like you just can't beat a FF nor a well micro'd Jan/abus.I may not know this MU as well as you do, so I will trust you on it even though for me it is fair as well

Sioux : I'm not sure about this one anymore but I think Otto should win.I think it should be fair on 3 TP. Otto is forced to jan/abus but then sioux might get away with an age up and it's complex

Spain : Watch kaiser vs garja. Garja played well, didn't matter. Hazza vs rapha is painful too although Hazza slightly misplayed.Spain wins this MU 100%. I will watch this matchs cuz Idk what happend but I am sure spain should win it ez pz

Dutch : Just FF, kill one bank, and Jan/abus/falc with 3 TPs wins.I would say it's otto favoured too

France : bwinner vs rouga or rouga vs Soldier, not even close.It's not as bad as you are saying. For me it's a close match and I am sure I could find plenty of match where fr won as well. 2 games means nothing.

Germany : The only MU you lose, but Germany Op.One of the MU you lose hard

Brit : Close one, but not easy for brit.Ez win for brit. What do you even do as otto lol ?

Port : FF, Port can't deal with abus, GG.You will have to go there 1st once again... Stop acting like you can get instantly a good mass of vet abus because that's not true. For me it's still a close match if port don't do major misstake

Russia : Easy for botto.Yes

So in the end, you only lose one match-up, and win more than half.
Otto is "one of the weakest civs"? xD
So for me you lose hard 3 MU and win 3.

That's ridicuoulsy biased judgement. I have corrected with my view.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Port just loses to Otto lol. I played that MU vs erik before the tourney and it wasn't close.

Also Iro can't ff vs Otto. We tried that MU and you got crushed.

Anyway, Otto is definitely not weak, and that +2 range abus doesn't make sense. You're probably the only one who believes it's fine.

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