Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Can we decrease abus multiplier vs artillery just a weeeeee bit?
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I think it's already nerfed to 0.5.
Anyway otto jan abus is both akward and also kinda weak imo atm. I'd revert current changes and proceed by just decreasing abus base damage.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

It's 0.75, and untouched. Please remind me to poll Abuse nerf (the base one, not the Fortress range one), in the future.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by charlemango »

@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Give abus a negative to boats as well please, they're just op on NE because of it, although i doubt we'll see NE in a tourney anytime soon.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

charlemango wrote:@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.

The civ is strong overall. To be fair, making a poll before a tournament doesn't make sense. If people can't rate the players, they probably can't rate the civilizations either. If we do a poll right now, Otto would be top tier.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Riotcoke wrote:Give abus a negative to boats as well please, they're just op on NE because of it, although i doubt we'll see NE in a tourney anytime soon.

But the games on NE are sooo gooood

Maybe just need some minor map tweaking to make more civs viable. And possibly buff warhut's anti-ship damage very slightly to make TWC civs a bit more viable on that map.


P.S. What we really need is a mono-civ tournament where Otto & Spain are banned and make everyone play only New England. Then people will great creative ;)
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:Give abus a negative to boats as well please, they're just op on NE because of it, although i doubt we'll see NE in a tourney anytime soon.

Otto is op on 4+ TP maps, not just NE.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
charlemango wrote:@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.

The civ is strong overall. To be fair, making a poll before a tournament doesn't make sense. If people can't rate the players, they probably can't rate the civilizations either. If we do a poll right now, Otto would be top tier.

I am sure they wouldn't, you should stop taking your opinion for the one of all esoc
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It wouldn't be 11th anyway. These polls have a lot of discrepancies also. For instance, Otto was 8th in nov 2018, and it got buffed lol.

Furthemore, Iro is 12th for some reasons (should be top5), France 6th, Port 7th (both civs are overrated).
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by charlemango »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
charlemango wrote:@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.

The civ is strong overall. To be fair, making a poll before a tournament doesn't make sense. If people can't rate the players, they probably can't rate the civilizations either. If we do a poll right now, Otto would be top tier.


I don't understand why for Otto, we automatically assume they get "3 tp stagecoach" and then claim that they are "top tier". I believe it is the prevailing opinion that for balance, civs should be assumed to have 1 tp available, and possibly a 2tp stagecoach. I can claim that Ports are top-tier too, assuming they have at least 8 whales available.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

charlemango wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
charlemango wrote:@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.

The civ is strong overall. To be fair, making a poll before a tournament doesn't make sense. If people can't rate the players, they probably can't rate the civilizations either. If we do a poll right now, Otto would be top tier.


I don't understand why for Otto, we automatically assume they get "3 tp stagecoach" and then claim that they are "top tier". I believe it is the prevailing opinion that for balance, civs should be assumed to have 1 tp available, and possibly a 2tp stagecoach. I can claim that Ports are top-tier too, assuming they have at least 8 whales available.

As I said, I don't know what the current EP philosophy is, but in tournament games, you're going to pick Otto on 4+ TP maps. The issue is that on big 4-5 TP maps is that you have to pick otto because it wins every MU (except arguably Germany and Sioux).
With Port it's different, because there's always a way to counter Port on water maps.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Pretty sure China, Japan (<- not sure about this one, maybe Kaiser is just bad :D ), and maybe Iro, can beat Otto on high TP maps as well, but most Euro civs will struggle pretty hard in this situation vs Otto, yeah.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Cometk »

Mitoe wrote:P.S. What we really need is a mono-civ tournament where Otto & Spain are banned and make everyone play only New England. Then people will great creative ;)

This is unironically somewhat good
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Cometk wrote:
Mitoe wrote:P.S. What we really need is a mono-civ tournament where Otto & Spain are banned and make everyone play only New England. Then people will great creative ;)

This is unironically somewhat good

Bonus tournament after the Grand Tour?
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

charlemango wrote:@zoom according to your player poll Ottomans are voted as the 11th best civ (4th worst civ). This suggests that Otto needs a buff more than a nerf. So if any change to abus guns I hope we can buff the civ elsewhere so it is stronger overall.
Absolutely, if it were desirable. On a related note, I will be posting another poll soon.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
Mitoe wrote:P.S. What we really need is a mono-civ tournament where Otto & Spain are banned and make everyone play only New England. Then people will great creative ;)

This is unironically somewhat good

Would only be Port/China then.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

I'm not sure. I think lots of other civs could work on New England as well (Dutch, British, or Iroquois for example). I think it might need 1 more gold mine per side though to really make things a bit more versatile because then you start opening the doors for France and Germany as well.

Even Russia's probably not that bad with the right build.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Mitoe wrote:I'm not sure. I think lots of other civs could work on New England as well (Dutch, British, or Iroquois for example). I think it might need 1 more gold mine per side though to really make things a bit more versatile because then you start opening the doors for France and Germany as well.

Even Russia's probably not that bad with the right build.


Why do you think dutch would be good on a map where the opponent can get 4 tps stagecoach easily?
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dutch is probably bad because of the TP line.
Brit could be fine, but some civs are going to get the 4 TP line, which is not ideal. I'm quite sure Iro is bad, because although they're good on TP maps, you'll lose these to fregates as you don't have fregates.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Dutch is one of the civs (like Japan) that can sometimes let the opponent get away with being greedy early on and then punish in early Fortress. The 3 Fluyt card in addition to 1 Frigate can also give them a bit more control over the game.

Worth mentioning that the TPs on New England are really not as good as some other maps. Probably worth closer to 2-3 vills each rather than 3-4 vills like other maps with stagecoach.

Plus I've been thinking that a Dutch water build might actually be good on this map, but I haven't experimented enough with those to know how good they are, but they seem promising overall.


As for Iro, I think you might be fine, but you'd have to play it differently. As Iroquois you wouldn't be able to control the ponds the same way, but you do have some other tools that can help.

Aging to Colonial with 2 travois for warhuts, grabbing the TP line and either playing very aggressively in age 2 or else aging to Fortress and making even more warhuts could be decent.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:Pretty sure China, Japan (<- not sure about this one, maybe Kaiser is just bad :D ), and maybe Iro, can beat Otto on high TP maps as well, but most Euro civs will struggle pretty hard in this situation vs Otto, yeah.

Pretty sure most euro civ can totally beat otto even on heavy TP maps. On EP they could even beat RE otto.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

Post by VooDoo_BoSs »

Garja wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Pretty sure China, Japan (<- not sure about this one, maybe Kaiser is just bad :D ), and maybe Iro, can beat Otto on high TP maps as well, but most Euro civs will struggle pretty hard in this situation vs Otto, yeah.

Pretty sure most euro civ can totally beat otto even on heavy TP maps. On EP they could even beat RE otto.


I'm not sure if this is true at all. There are many civs which really struggle vs Otto - mainly Brit / Dutch / Port. The only euro civ which IMO can consistently beat otto is maybe Germany or Spain.
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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Post by juhjuh »

i was thinking about removing abus but might be better to just unable the entire civ
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Re: Ottoman Discussion Thread

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