Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

aqwer wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Otto is stupidly overated


Agree but why?

because bwinner is op at playing it
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

while we are at it id like to the churchupgrades for LOS moved to tc and made cheaper
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

lordraphael wrote:while we are at it id like to the churchupgrades for LOS moved to tc and made cheaper


Price can be adjusted but moving it is not good.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

Many techs belong in the TC, including some cards.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

What about changing abus multiplier from
1.5x vs HI
to
0.75x vs Infantry
2x vs HI?

They would do 25% less damage to ranged infantry only, making 20 range abus more counterable by skirms. It's like if abus attack was affected by the ranged resist of skirms only.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Also, for the card Mosque Construction: effect changed to "Mosque vill upgrades are free" (agrarian ways-like)
Not necessary by any mean but maybe an idea for the future
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

gamevideo113 wrote:What about changing abus multiplier from
1.5x vs HI
to
0.75x vs Infantry
2x vs HI?

They would do 25% less damage to ranged infantry only, making 20 range abus more counterable by skirms. It's like if abus attack was affected by the ranged resist of skirms only.


As much as I hate Abus, that sounds like some pretty hard standardisation.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

Why should abus be countered by skirms? They are artillery design wise.

Also, due to the weak otto eco, ottos have no choice but to go jan/abus most of the time (aside from shipments), meaning that skirms alone would counter their whole composition.

It seems fair to me that skirms only do okay vs abus when kiting properly. The other civs can still go cav (Jans are pretty bad anticav due to their fairly low attack) to counter abus.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Well, it's an idea if we want to nerf abus but don't want to move the +2 range to industrial (which is still probably the best thing to do). I think abus would still do very well against skirms because of their high dps.

Anyway i still advocate for 32 dmg 3 RoF abus.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Abus need to destroy skirms because 1. Abus dont hard counter goons as theyre more of an artilerry unit(art > skirm).
And 2. Otto cant really make cavalry to counter skirms.
3. Otto eco is shit so they need a cost effective ranged unit to get good trades to compensate their bad eco.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

It is very frustrating that Ottoman can't train their special unit "spahi" but all other civs can e.g. dog soldier for Sioux, cuir for French, mahot lancer for India and urumi infinite shipment, skull knight for Aztec.
It would make their late game a bit fun which is so bad right now.

Ofc you can remove auto upgrade, heal abilities and adjust the cost by stats.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'm fine with abus destroying skirms, but then they shouldn't destroy goons (and currently 20 range abus counter goons) because artillery isn't meant to counter everything. If you compare them with falcs, they're slightly worse against infantry but more mobile, they counter goons, they kill falcs and they don't get countered by culvs, the unit is just broken.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Post by Kawapasaka »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'm fine with abus destroying skirms, but then they shouldn't destroy goons (and currently 20 range abus counter goons) because artillery isn't meant to counter everything. If you compare them with falcs, they're slightly worse against infantry but more mobile, they counter goons, they kill falcs and they don't get countered by culvs, the unit is just broken.


How else does Otto counter goons though? I do like the idea of making their damage much worse against artillery though, like comparable to normal skirms, so other civs in age 3 have an option other than cav to counter them
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kawapasaka wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'm fine with abus destroying skirms, but then they shouldn't destroy goons (and currently 20 range abus counter goons) because artillery isn't meant to counter everything. If you compare them with falcs, they're slightly worse against infantry but more mobile, they counter goons, they kill falcs and they don't get countered by culvs, the unit is just broken.


How else does Otto counter goons though? I do like the idea of making their damage much worse against artillery though, like comparable to normal skirms, so other civs in age 3 have an option other than cav to counter them

Jans do fine against 20% RR goons.
I'm fine with abus countering goons anyway, 18 range is enough for that. But they shouldn't counter hard counter artillery AND goons AND skirms.
If you think about it, all the units in aoe3 have 2 counters, and all the units also have a counter with more range (except the culverin), 18 range abus already break that rule and they're mobile on top of that, don't make them a hard counter on top of that.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'm fine with abus destroying skirms, but then they shouldn't destroy goons (and currently 20 range abus counter goons) because artillery isn't meant to counter everything. If you compare them with falcs, they're slightly worse against infantry but more mobile, they counter goons, they kill falcs and they don't get countered by culvs, the unit is just broken.


How else does Otto counter goons though? I do like the idea of making their damage much worse against artillery though, like comparable to normal skirms, so other civs in age 3 have an option other than cav to counter them

Jans do fine against 20% RR goons.
I'm fine with abus countering goons anyway, 18 range is enough for that. But they shouldn't counter hard counter artillery AND goons AND skirms.
If you think about it, all the units in aoe3 have 2 counters, and all the units also have a counter with more range (except the culverin), 18 range abus already break that rule and they're mobile on top of that, don't make them a hard counter on top of that.


Yeah Abus are pretty ridiculous, I just gave it some thought. Firstly they're a strong RI that counter other RI. However, unlike other units in this category (LB, Yumi) they can kite effortlessly and don't struggle at their job against strong heavy inf such as Sepoy at all, also being upgradeable with CIR. And on top of that they kill artillery and boats instantly. I definitely think they should be nerfed vs artillery.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yep, that's why I'd move the +2 range to industrial. Giving them a 0.5 bonus vs artillery would be another option, worse imo because reverting an underserved buff is always better than standardizing the unit.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

jan and abus do well vs lot of units because otto only has those units as infantry
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Also predictable what otto is gonna train as they need multiple production facilities to train infantry
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Also can I ask someone who knows their stuff: How do Abus fare against Yumi? Is there a break-even point with certain levels of upgrades, or does one just outclass the other cost-effectively always?
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kawapasaka wrote:Also can I ask someone who knows their stuff: How do Abus fare against Yumi? Is there a break-even point with certain levels of upgrades, or does one just outclass the other cost-effectively always?

In age 2 it's rather close, although the abus win cost effectively if you can kite.
However, 20 range abus absolutely demolish yumis. Otto can just hit and run you and you're going to lose 4 yumis per volley and won't even kill one abus. If Jap gets the range upgrade card it's closer but the abus still win cost effectively. Anyway, funny to see jap needs to spend a shipment to get the +2 range while otto just needs a 200w/200c upgrade lol.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

Kawapasaka wrote:Also can I ask someone who knows their stuff: How do Abus fare against Yumi? Is there a break-even point with certain levels of upgrades, or does one just outclass the other cost-effectively always?

theyre about equal in industrial i think, maybe yumis a lil worse thanks to thier rate of fire
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Sargsyan wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:Also can I ask someone who knows their stuff: How do Abus fare against Yumi? Is there a break-even point with certain levels of upgrades, or does one just outclass the other cost-effectively always?

theyre about equal in industrial i think, maybe yumis a lil worse thanks to thier rate of fire

Nah, if you don't send the range card they get molested.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Sargsyan wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:Also can I ask someone who knows their stuff: How do Abus fare against Yumi? Is there a break-even point with certain levels of upgrades, or does one just outclass the other cost-effectively always?

theyre about equal in industrial i think, maybe yumis a lil worse thanks to thier rate of fire

Nah, if you don't send the range card they get molested.

sure thing
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I mean youre gonna have way more yumi
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

In light of the discussions
/viewtopic.php?p=395484#p395484

I propose to remove the +2 range from vet abus gun upgrade and make a age IV card that will give them "+2 range and 1 AoE". It will make them easier to deal in age III while making them on relatively equal footing with other RI.
As abus guns are very bad in late game due to costing 2 pop , large Overkill and require intensive micro not possible with large armies.

P.S. I think there is a game in which micro-God Kaiser himself admitted that it is impossible to do with large armies for long while playing Otto against iamturk India on Manchuria.
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