Ottomans Discussion Thread

Vietnam duckzilla
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Give abus guns area damage with their imperial upgrade to reduce overkill. Tests with skull knights show that area effect of 3 is not too strong.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

I think AoE is quite enough in industrial
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

aqwer wrote:In light of the discussions
/viewtopic.php?p=395484#p395484

I propose to remove the +2 range from vet abus gun upgrade and make a age IV card that will give them "+2 range and 1 AoE". It will make them easier to deal in age III while making them on relatively equal footing with other RI.
As abus guns are very bad in late game due to costing 2 pop , large Overkill and require intensive micro not possible with large armies.

P.S. I think there is a game in which micro-God Kaiser himself admitted that it is impossible to do with large armies for long while playing Otto against iamturk India on Manchuria.
Actually that game rather showed that vet abus range on EP is not a problem. Once Otto gets to the point where they can afford a large amount of vet abus in Age3, the opponent will have like twice the eco at least, meaning that Otto actually needs the strong abus to compete. Age4 is not a good alternative because it requires a very expensive age up that you can't often afford, see that game for example.

Even with really good micro like Kaiser's the abus werent OP because units are never OP in a vacuum. Strong abus only make up for the pathetic eco, especially in mid game.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

"Eco" doesn't matter much if you can get an unkillable army. And when you reach a critical mass of fortress abus, with some stuff to cover, it becomes pretty much unkillable for most civs indeed. That means otto can constantly poke and get good trades, and deny the mapcontrol, so regardless of the eco otto will push you out of resources.

Meanwhile, otto's fortress boom is heavily buffed on EP, with tcs and mosque ups being cheaper. And vils training for free in 3 tcs is pretty good after all. So it's not like otto necessarily has a garbage eco in that kind of fortress game.

I've played plenty of games where I (or my opponent) felt "behind", but in fact the otto army could never be killed because of abus. Most of them were twitch videos that probably disappeared, but you can check my game vs raphael in the epl, or my game vs erik in autumn 2018. Not saying no mistake was made by otto's opponent, but you can still clearly see in these games how broken abus are.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:"Eco" doesn't matter much if you can get an unkillable army. And when you reach a critical mass of fortress abus, with some stuff to cover, it becomes pretty much unkillable for most civs indeed. That means otto can constantly poke and get good trades, and deny the mapcontrol, so regardless of the eco otto will push you out of resources.

Meanwhile, otto's fortress boom is heavily buffed on EP, with tcs and mosque ups being cheaper. And vils training for free in 3 tcs is pretty good after all. So it's not like otto necessarily has a garbage eco in that kind of fortress game.

I've played plenty of games where I (or my opponent) felt "behind", but in fact the otto army could never be killed because of abus. Most of them were twitch videos that probably disappeared, but you can check my game vs raphael in the epl, or my game vs erik in autumn 2018. Not saying no mistake was made by otto's opponent, but you can still clearly see in these games how broken abus are.
That is the point I am trying to make. Abus gun are very difficult to manage for most civs in fortress. Apparently bcz of 20 range.
I am suggesting to remove +2 range from vet upgrade and instead a card added that gives "+2 range and 1 AoE" in age IV.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

If anything let the guard upgrade give abus +2 range, instead of the veteran one. They don't need area of effect.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:If anything let the guard upgrade give abus +2 range, instead of the veteran one. They don't need area of effect.
:cry:
Wouldn't it be cool though? And I don't think its op.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well for one thing, I doubt otto would even have that industrial card in deck. So the rare times where you wanna get guard abus (say 1% of games) you wouldn't be able to ship the card anyway. While if you make the +2 range be part of the guard upgrade, you don't have that problem. Also creating a new card is always a bit awkward.
And for another, abus are currently strong enough, even in late game, and definitely don't need a buff like that.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Then there is no point of moving +2 range from vet to guard as you mentioned that only a few games reach that point.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well yeah I'm also fine with purely removing the +2 range
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Kaiserklein wrote:Well yeah I'm also fine with purely removing the +2 range
Me too
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

Why are we still trying to nerf one of the civ with the lowest winrate in both tourney and casual games ?
Since it's so easy to play, if it was strong, it would have insane stats right ?
Also still insisting on nerfing age 3 abus that no one use, I just don't understand^^
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

Does it have low winrate?
I'd argue that it is the exact opposite. It's a civ that in theory has been nerfed significantly but in practice it wins games.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Culvs should counter Abus, prove me wrong :kinggreen:
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Kawapasaka wrote:Culvs should counter Abus, prove me wrong :kinggreen:
Technically, culvs should then counter any gunpowder unit, including skirms and muskets. Why should it matter how wide the barrel of a weapon is?
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Kawapasaka wrote:Culvs should counter Abus, prove me wrong :kinggreen:
Falcs, heavies and horse artillery already does, why do culvs need to as well? If anything abus should do 1/2 to 1/4 to artillery instead
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

dansil92 wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:Culvs should counter Abus, prove me wrong :kinggreen:
Falcs, heavies and horse artillery already does, why do culvs need to as well? If anything abus should do 1/2 to 1/4 to artillery instead
And Abus, just like another artillery piece, counter Falcs, Heavies and Horse Artillery. But yeah I was only being half serious. The more feasible option is for sure just giving them a worse negative multiplier against artillery, like the normal damage of the skirm cost-equivalent. It is ridiculous that you pretty much can't make artillery vs an Abus mass ever, completely game-breaking imo.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

Garja wrote:Does it have low winrate?
I'd argue that it is the exact opposite. It's a civ that in theory has been nerfed significantly but in practice it wins games.
According to the statistics you can find on esoc it's one of the lowest winrate yeah
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

Otto is just a very unpopular civ in the general gaming population's opinion. They are seen as easy (personally, I find civs like France easier) and no skill, rendering them an often cited candidate for nerfs.

Honestly, lots of civs have amazing units in mid to late game. Urumi are OP, ashis almost unbeatable for many civs with stacked upgrades. Cuirs are very good, even Sepoy with East India company and mansabdar are ridiculous.

I really don't see why Age3 abus of all these units, which so rarely get trained, need to be nerfed.

Not to mention that Otto army is so immobile. Eg there was a game of I think Knusch on high plains with Otto. His opponent just ran all over the map, killing every single villager. Nothing ottos "unbeatable" army could do.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

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Post by Kawapasaka »

bwinner wrote:
Garja wrote:Does it have low winrate?
I'd argue that it is the exact opposite. It's a civ that in theory has been nerfed significantly but in practice it wins games.
According to the statistics you can find on esoc it's one of the lowest winrate yeah
I don't think you can extrapolate that much from EP statistics. You alone probably account for a very significant % of Otto games played on EP, and if you're playing often against higher ranked players (and therefore losing a higher % of games), it's obviously going to skew the results.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by bwinner »

Kawapasaka wrote:
bwinner wrote:
Garja wrote:Does it have low winrate?
I'd argue that it is the exact opposite. It's a civ that in theory has been nerfed significantly but in practice it wins games.
According to the statistics you can find on esoc it's one of the lowest winrate yeah
I don't think you can extrapolate that much from EP statistics. You alone probably account for a very significant % of Otto games played on EP, and if you're playing often against higher ranked players (and therefore losing a higher % of games), it's obviously going to skew the results.
I am not talking about my personnal statistics, I am talking about this :
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17978
and also there was some stats for tourney and otto also usually had bad winrate.
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

sioux and british so low, need buff!
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Like victor_swe says, it's ridiculous a manor house creates only 9 population and costs more. I would like 90w default manors please, adjusted in accord with its utility of a house's utility (provide population).
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Sargsyan »

and ppl think its a good bonus LOL
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Re: Ottomans Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

bwinner wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
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I don't think you can extrapolate that much from EP statistics. You alone probably account for a very significant % of Otto games played on EP, and if you're playing often against higher ranked players (and therefore losing a higher % of games), it's obviously going to skew the results.
I am not talking about my personnal statistics, I am talking about this :
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17978
and also there was some stats for tourney and otto also usually had bad winrate.
Yes that is also exactly what I was referring to, I mean it doesn't have to be you specifically, that was just an example of someone who has played a lot of games with a particular civ skewing the overall results because the sample size is as small as it is.
If you take those stats at face value they tell us that Brit is by far the worst civ in the game, time to give Lbows triple rate of fire and 30 damage?

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