Ottomans Discussion Thread

[harcha]

so is it ranged range or melee range that is discussed? i think melee range would be kewl

[duckzilla]

so is it ranged range or melee range that is discussed? i think melee range would be kewl

The discussion is on the range of the ranged attack. A ranged melee attack for cavalry archers does not make any sense, since the units do not automatically switch to melee mode anyway. You would need to manually switch them to melee which then 1. reduces your actual range and 2. halves the dmg done.

[Cometk]

a ranged attack that deals melee damage was at some points in time considered a potential buff to tomahawks, but usually scrapped because it would completely upset the current balance of the civ

[Goodspeed]

That's a great change

[aqwer]

That's a great change

Which one?

[Goodspeed]

Melee dmg on toma ranged attack

[aqwer]

Melee dmg on toma ranged attack

Makes sense but I think toma are already very good in melee.

[Kaiserklein]

Gl killing musks with tomas after that change

[Garja]

It's an ass change. CA is a decent unit already. You want to buff the Otto one? Add like 15% attack or HP on their special card on top of the multiplier vs vills.

[bwinner]

Thing is CA is not a good unit for otto, because they cost 2 pop and you can't afford that when you already have abus. Sometimes you are forced to make them (like vs sioux because of DS), but overall I think they are bad for otto. Although I don't have an opinion on the proposed change.

[aqwer]

It's an ass change. CA is a decent unit already. You want to buff the Otto one? Add like 15% attack or HP on their special card on top of the multiplier vs vills.

CA are bad against goons. Do you think that extra att or hp will make them good raiders? They will be chased and hunted down almost always bcz they are fucking slow too. If you don't like +2 range then give them 0.5 speed more on that card.

[Garja]

CA are not great vs goons, so what? They're not supposed to be good against them. Thing is in mass they actually do ok because their hp and dps is way more and it compensates for the lack of ranged resistance and instant fire.
Speed buff is ok, I guess, idk about range, it doesn't make too much sense.

[Hazza54321]

yeah Ca in general should be faster.

[aqwer]

CA are not great vs goons, so what? They're not supposed to be good against them. Thing is in mass they actually do ok because their hp and dps is way more and it compensates for the lack of ranged resistance and instant fire.
Speed buff is ok, I guess, idk about range, it doesn't make too much sense.

I said that wrt to Irregulars card that supposed to make them good raiders. And you don't raid with your whole army, if you do then it is not a raid.
Speed buff is okay but +2 range is better bcz it is already in line with few range upgrades.
I would suggest x1.0 against vils and +2 range.

[aqwer]

I think Otto should be able to train spahis in stable. It is so frustrating to not use this cool unit except few shipments, and will also fix some late game problems with Otto Cav, bcz Otto Cav are not that good.
Ppl would argue that it be op but I think it is just equivalent to cuir maybe weaker if we set the cost to 400res and 4 pop. Bcz cuirs have 3 cards but spahis only one.
Since EP is moving in right direction by making less used units more viable. I think it would a step in right direction. @zoom

[Kaiserklein]

We have enough trouble balancing the game already. Plus we're trying to make shit units more viable, which makes balancing harder. Now do we really need to add new trainable units..? What the fuck is the point except you having fun training them

[aqwer]

We have enough trouble balancing the game already. Plus we're trying to make shit units more viable, which makes balancing harder. Now do we really need to add new trainable units..? What the fuck is the point except you having fun training them

Not a new unit though, just the availability in stable though.
Balancing is great but fun is essential too. All I am saying that just try them , make it 400red 4 pop unit and see where it goes.
After all, the teepee eco thing was introduced and is still being tried to keep it, even though everyone complaining about it.
The spahi change is not that big even bcz it will only show major effect in really late game. But I don't understand the hate here.

[Kaiserklein]

EP isn't a fun patch, it's a competitive patch. Sure fun matters too, but it's really not a priority on a patch designed for competition. And randomly giving ottos a new trainable cav unit surely doesn't help balancing at all. One example, think about the balance implications since spahis auto upgrade? You say the change wouldn't be big but really we don't know about that lol.

The teepees change was a BALANCE change. Sure, it was a fail, but it doesn't change the fact that it was here to try and balance sioux (by giving them eco options and a way to defend rushes). It wasn't created for "fun". The comparison makes no sense.

I'm "hating" cause I'm getting real tired of all these nonsensical propositions for EP, while we're still struggling to balance it after like 3 years.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'd just ignore these suggestions but the issue is that the current EP leadership sometimes can't make the difference between balance changes and random changes.

Is the native exp troll change reverted by the way ?

[aqwer]

EP isn't a fun patch, it's a competitive patch. Sure fun matters too, but it's really not a priority on a patch designed for competition. And randomly giving ottos a new trainable cav unit surely doesn't help balancing at all. One example, think about the balance implications since spahis auto upgrade? You say the change wouldn't be big but really we don't know about that lol.

The teepees change was a BALANCE change. Sure, it was a fail, but it doesn't change the fact that it was here to try and balance sioux (by giving them eco options and a way to defend rushes). It wasn't created for "fun". The comparison makes no sense.

I'm "hating" cause I'm getting real tired of all these nonsensical propositions for EP, while we're still struggling to balance it after like 3 years.

First of all thank you for your detailed reply.
I am talking about not only for fun but also for balancing, since Otto late game is rather poor. And it will add a rather interesting dynamic to it.
You are giving example of auto upgrade, I think it is implied that when it will be trained like a normal unit , it will behave like one i.e no auto upgrade, no auto healing.
You are saying that we don't know the implications of the proposed change. I agree but the same argument can be taken against teepee changes but it is still going on. So why one thing that is totally new (bigger than trainable spahi) is still being tried after not much success but other suggestions are being denied the same treatment.
And just I want to quote diarouga as he said in this very thread that if Otto reaches late game then they are playing wrong. If that is the mentality of EP team then why balancing the game , things were running just like that on RE. Every civ has almost fixed way to win and that all. Some rushes hard and some boom, the two extremes. Now that the EP wants to bring the gap closer, some player resisting bcz they have learned a certain way to play and don't wanna adopt.

[Kaiserklein]

I am talking about not only for fun but also for balancing, since Otto late game is rather poor. And it will add a rather interesting dynamic to it.

If we wanted to balance the otto late game we'd find much more elegant solutions than making spahis trainable. Lategame is anyway inherently super imbalanced in aoe3, so whatever.

You are giving example of auto upgrade, I think it is implied that when it will be trained like a normal unit , it will behave like one i.e no auto upgrade, no auto healing.

So you'd remove the auto healing and auto upgrading. So this has implications on the current balance since it changes the spahis we know. Just why?

You are saying that we don't know the implications of the proposed change. I agree but the same argument can be taken against teepee changes but it is still going on. So why one thing that is totally new (bigger than trainable spahi) is still being tried after not much success but other suggestions are being denied the same treatment.

Again... The teepee change was meant to change the balance. So of course we knew it'd have implications, that's the whole point of the change, lol. You always have to take risks if you want to balance the game. How is that comparable to taking risks for a subjective "fun" change though..? At least the reasoning behind the teepee change made sense, even if it eventually proved to be a failure. The reasoning behind this spahi change, however, makes no sense.

And just I want to quote diarouga as he said in this very thread that if Otto reaches late game then they are playing wrong. If that is the mentality of EP team then why balancing the game , things were running just like that on RE. Every civ has almost fixed way to win and that all. Some rushes hard and some boom, the two extremes. Now that the EP wants to bring the gap closer, some player resisting bcz they have learned a certain way to play and don't wanna adopt.

diarouga said that because yes, by design, ottos aren't a late game civ. We're trying to give them better eco/late game options, but obviously it will never have the late game potential of say, japan or ports, unless we totally revamp ottos. EP is indeed trying to reduce the gap, not to make all civs equal at every stage of the game. That's anyway impossible because there's so many civs with drastically different designs. So yes, there will always be some preferred playstyle from a given civ. I don't see the problem with that, of course ports will usually try to win by outbooming, of course germany will usually try to win with strong timings, and of course otto will usually try to win by being aggressive...

[aqwer]

The community is reluctant to go for trainable spahis in stable bcz they have been misguided that it would be op. But in fact, spahi are just cuirs for Otto and even less upgradeable than cuis so less abusable i.e less cards, less eco, less final military pop.
But we can also adopt a less controversial solution and see how it goes. We can give ottoman a cards that transforms all Huss into spahi once like other cards already there. We can make it a fortress or industrial card or may add some food cost to it to balance it out and addressing ppl concern about it. It would add a nice dynamic to not only ottoman play but the game overall.

[duckzilla]

I think such a card would be more overpowered than slowly trainable and expensive spahis.
Given that spahi base stats are significantly superior to cuirs (max stats are 1537hp/68dmg + an area effect of 3 and hp regeneration), their cost should be around 180f/180c or ~525VS. A hussar costs 120f/80c or ~283VS. A card changing all your hussars to spahis would return a benefit of roughly 242VS or 145 coin per hussar. The net value of the shipment for an easily trainable 30 hussars would be ~4350coin.

[aqwer]

I think such a card would be more overpowered than slowly trainable and expensive spahis.
Given that spahi base stats are significantly superior to cuirs (max stats are 1537hp/68dmg + an area effect of 3 and hp regeneration), their cost should be around 180f/180c or ~525VS. A hussar costs 120f/80c or ~283VS. A card changing all your hussars to spahis would return a benefit of roughly 242VS or 145 coin per hussar. The net value of the shipment for an easily trainable 30 hussars would be ~4350coin.

We can move that card to industrial, add a cost of like 2000res to it.

[harcha]

Don't see why you so desperately want to add more spahis. Otto has royal guard hussars.

Disregarding the above, imo it would make more sense for auto train spahis similar to bombards. For example add a fortress tech in mosque that costs 500/500/500 which turns mosque into a factory for spahi.