Ottomans Discussion Thread

[oats13]

Spahi are obviously a great unit judged 'per-unit' i.e on paper, but they are situational in terms of both availability and strategy.

This is surely as the gods intended in their infinite wisdom.

Spahi are particularly effective when the game is in a non-standard 'state' .

For example the mams timing in an FF can generate enough xp to send them soon after the mams which can enable full 'somali-mode', some spahi FF's vs china etc. can be nice in RE also ( see Boneng recs) also a nice auto-up on ageing to 4.

Really they are far from the most OP thing about Otto in any format of the game- the unique units are supposed to be just that.

[zoom]

I think Otto should be able to train spahis in stable. It is so frustrating to not use this cool unit except few shipments, and will also fix some late game problems with Otto Cav, bcz Otto Cav are not that good.
Ppl would argue that it be op but I think it is just equivalent to cuir maybe weaker if we set the cost to 400res and 4 pop. Bcz cuirs have 3 cards but spahis only one.
Since EP is moving in right direction by making less used units more viable. I think it would a step in right direction. @zoom

I believe I've responded to this suggestion, in the past. If it proves popular, we could consider it, in the future. Personally, I'm not fond of this particular idea, since the unit is designed specifically to be available only from the home city. Regardless, the first step is to make the unit perform less poorly, so that shipping it is more viable, to begin with. The Spahi is a relatively bad unit—especially compared to the options, which makes it less viable.

Please excuse my tardiness.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

Spahi is basically the best cav in the game except for the rr% which prevents them to be OP af. In fact the same thing should be done for urumi too.

Best Cav but can't use them much

Isn't that how it's supposed to be?

And we are doing things as they are supposed to be...
Ahm ahm karni mata teepees

I mean how things are supposed to be balanced in general. A unit that is very powerful should be more rare. I don't see why it's troubling that Ottoman have (one of the) best cav units but can't use them every game.

Then what about urumi, they is infinite shipment for them.

The key is that the cost of a shipment is a limiting factor (especially for Indians which also loses a Villager sending it). Primarily due to its strength, the Urumi is more viable than the Spahi, though.

[duckzilla]

Just change one spahi card to an infinite age IV card of 6 spahis for 1k food.

[Kaiserklein]

I guess spahis could have 20% rr maybe.

Just change one spahi card to an infinite age IV card of 6 spahis for 1k food.

You're trolling right?

[aqwer]

spoiler

I think Otto should be able to train spahis in stable. It is so frustrating to not use this cool unit except few shipments, and will also fix some late game problems with Otto Cav, bcz Otto Cav are not that good.
Ppl would argue that it be op but I think it is just equivalent to cuir maybe weaker if we set the cost to 400res and 4 pop. Bcz cuirs have 3 cards but spahis only one.
Since EP is moving in right direction by making less used units more viable. I think it would a step in right direction. @zoom

I believe I've responded to this suggestion, in the past. If it proves popular, we could consider it, in the future. Personally, I'm not fond of this particular idea, since the unit is designed specifically to be available only from the home city. Regardless, the first step is to make the unit perform less poorly, so that shipping it is more viable, to begin with. The Spahi is a relatively bad unit—especially compared to the options, which makes it less viable.

Please excuse my tardiness.

I think we could test it out in a future iteration of EP. About "to be available only from the home city", is only relevant for vanilla bcz
1) they did circumvent around it by giving infinite urumi shipment to India which also is a unit available only from home city. So you can have them whenever you want provided that you can afford it.
2) similar overlook on other vanilla mechanics by tad developers i.e. Queueing china units without full available pop;, saving units cycle in chinese wonders, fire pit warriors, dojo etc
So I think if they want to properly balance it then following should be the way yo go

1) either make spahi trainable or infinite shipments
2) can queue russian units without full available pop
3) factory HC cycle froze in case of pop limit

But they kinda neglected it, so it is up to us to finish the job just like with other things EP is trying.

About spahi stats:
I think 20% rr is good idea but if you want to make them trainable I would suggest to increase cost to 400 res 4 pop 800 hp and 36 att.

[aqwer]

Just change one spahi card to an infinite age IV card of 6 spahis for 1k food.

I think 5 spahi infinite for 1k food in age IV is reasonable since they are not as useful as urumi.

[zoom]

spoiler

I think Otto should be able to train spahis in stable. It is so frustrating to not use this cool unit except few shipments, and will also fix some late game problems with Otto Cav, bcz Otto Cav are not that good.
Ppl would argue that it be op but I think it is just equivalent to cuir maybe weaker if we set the cost to 400res and 4 pop. Bcz cuirs have 3 cards but spahis only one.
Since EP is moving in right direction by making less used units more viable. I think it would a step in right direction. @zoom

I believe I've responded to this suggestion, in the past. If it proves popular, we could consider it, in the future. Personally, I'm not fond of this particular idea, since the unit is designed specifically to be available only from the home city. Regardless, the first step is to make the unit perform less poorly, so that shipping it is more viable, to begin with. The Spahi is a relatively bad unit—especially compared to the options, which makes it less viable.

Please excuse my tardiness.

I think we could test it out in a future iteration of EP. About "to be available only from the home city", is only relevant for vanilla bcz
1) they did circumvent around it by giving infinite urumi shipment to India which also is a unit available only from home city. So you can have them whenever you want provided that you can afford it.
2) similar overlook on other vanilla mechanics by tad developers i.e. Queueing china units without full available pop;, saving units cycle in chinese wonders, fire pit warriors, dojo etc
So I think if they want to properly balance it then following should be the way yo go

1) either make spahi trainable or infinite shipments
2) can queue russian units without full available pop
3) factory HC cycle froze in case of pop limit

But they kinda neglected it, so it is up to us to finish the job just like with other things EP is trying.

About spahi stats:
I think 20% rr is good idea but if you want to make them trainable I would suggest to increase cost to 400 res 4 pop 800 hp and 36 att.

Like I said: If it's popular, I'm open to testing an Industrial Age INFINITE Spahi shipment, or trainable Spahi in Industrial or Imperial Age, in a future iteration of the patch. Personally, I would prefer the former over the latter, according to my previous post.

What you're saying doesn't change the fact that the Urumi is only available from the home-city, though.

[zoom]

I see some arguing that the unit is too strong, in general; not that it shouldn't counter other ranged infantry. The result of reverting Abuse Range is a weaker unit—against artillery and cavalry even more so than ranged infantry.

This is wrong. Reverting the change will make the unit disproportionately worse against skirms, compared to cav or art. The goal of the change was to make abus counter skirms, which they didn't with 18 range.
If people aren't arguing that abus shouldn't counter skirms, then they are unaware of the effect their suggestion would have. I was there when we tested the EP version in which we noticed skirms traded too well against abus with 18 range, I know the effects and am trying to share the knowledge. Take it or leave it.

Isn't adding range to the unit making it less specialized? Where is the sense in nerfing RoF—then buffing range—then nerfing hitpoints, only because you want the unit to do at least as well against ranged infantry??

Yes, the "sense" is to make the unit counter ranged infantry.
I would't change the unit at all right now. If Otto are too strong which I highly doubt, I would nerf them elsewhere. It's not like Otto's armies are (even close to) 90% abus. But if you insist on changing the unit, and I wouldn't blame you because people are notoriously unable to accept that some units are stronger than others, I'd probably go with HP. Maybe the minimum range.

Why not have Veteran Abuse Guns restore RoF,

Having inconsistent RoF on a unit would make it frustrating to micro. Feels like poor design. Also, the range change affects their performance against skirms much more than anything else, which makes it the perfect change for this particular goal.

or buff the ranged resistance of the unit???

Because it would disproportionately affect how ranged cav do against it.

You seem to be making a case against yourself, which is a shame since the sentiment that the unit should trade well against other ranged infantry is perfectly sound.

Since that's my exact point how am I "making a case against myself"?

Surely you aren't cherry picking the facts that are convenient, to you?

What facts, specifically, am I ignoring?

Another thing to keep in mind is that abus, once on the field, may seem very strong, but getting them on the field is another challenge. It's 300w for a building you would otherwise not build and they train very slowly. With 18 range, abus felt like a unit you built only because the other compositions you could go for were even worse. You didn't do it because you were excited about the unit. Being a unique unit, and Otto being a civ that should have a higher quality army than other civs, I think abus should be a unit you get excited about.

Exactly—it makes no sense. If you want to achieve a better performance against Skirmishers, nerfing the rate of fire more, and moving the range buff to Colonial Age, would make more sense than adding a hitpoints nerf in Fortress Age, wouldn't it?

You seem to be ignoring that the change is making the unit less specialized, in general, and more like a Skirmisher, in particular.

What points of yours I can understand, I mostly agree with, though. Splitting the increase across Veteran and Guard Abus seems a reasonable compromise.

Please excuse my forgetting to reply to this post, previously.

Thanks!

[zoom]

Gl killing musks with tomas after that change [turning the Tomahawk's ranged attack into melee damage]

Consider using the Aenna, or Forest Prowler, for that purpose.

In my opinion, the relevant issue is that countering Forest Prowlers with heavy cavalry would become more difficult, which hardly seems desirable. Otherwise, I agree that it is a great change, on top of being the original design of the unit.

[bwinner]

Pretty sad to nerf the most interesting builds of ottomans (greedy age 3 plays). Especially when people keep complaining about other builds being too ez. I mean if the follow to any agressiv opening is shit, you gotta rely on broken options: now if you ff, you gotta either win with the 2 falcs/mams or resign. I know the nazi lobby will come and say it's still good, but I am ready to bet we won't see anyone going for an ff with ottomansduring a tourney from now.

[Kaiserklein]

You mean no one is gonna ff with ottos because abus have 19 range now? Or what do you mean

[Sargsyan]

You mean no one is gonna ff with ottos because abus have 19 range now? Or what do you mean

you definitely haven't read the botto guide, too bad, you could boost some pr using #bwinner methods

[bwinner]

You mean no one is gonna ff with ottos because abus have 19 range now? Or what do you mean

19 range and lower multiplier vs canons yes.

[Kaiserklein]

There's no way that alone kills the greedy FF lol, come on

[Goodspeed]

With 18 range they traded poorly with skirms considering their very slow train time and need for a 700 res investment (building and vet tech) which are both particularly painful downsides for a low eco civ like Otto. With 19 range they're probably okay, but there's a chance it'll push the skirm trades over the edge again so that training abus is no longer worth it. It won't kill the no eco FF which already didn't rely on abus, but it seems reasonable to expect less eco FFs.

[bwinner]

Yeah, not mentioning you have only a trash card to send if you want to ship abus in age 3 @Goodspeed
@Kaiserklein ofc 19range abus that don't kill canons and with low rof are still an ok unit, but going greedy was only possible because you could hold a skirm goons push even if you was outmassed.
I already said it before but I think going for 19range in fort and 20 in industrial can be ok, but only if there is compensations that are : cheaper foundries and 5abus->6abus. But even there it's just removing uniqueness of the civ gameplay so not very pleasant.

[zoom]

Pretty sure Abuse is still good vs artillery.

[zoom]

Pretty sad to nerf the most interesting builds of ottomans (greedy age 3 plays). Especially when people keep complaining about other builds being too ez. I mean if the follow to any agressiv opening is shit, you gotta rely on broken options: now if you ff, you gotta either win with the 2 falcs/mams or resign. I know the nazi lobby will come and say it's still good, but I am ready to bet we won't see anyone going for an ff with ottomansduring a tourney from now.

Although Goodspeed is essentially right, I don't think it's so bad. Should probably buff the Spahi more, though.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, not mentioning you have only a trash card to send if you want to ship abus in age 3 @Goodspeed
@Kaiserklein ofc 19range abus that don't kill canons and with low rof are still an ok unit, but going greedy was only possible because you could hold a skirm goons push even if you was outmassed.
I already said it before but I think going for 19range in fort and 20 in industrial can be ok, but only if there is compensations that are : cheaper foundries and 5abus->6abus. But even there it's just removing uniqueness of the civil gameplay so not very pleasant.

"that don't kill cannons"? Abus with x0.75 used to absolutely molest cannons lol. With x0.5, it's just 2/3 of the damage they used to deal, I'm sure they still kill cannons just fine. They just won't be culvs anymore now...
And they have 1 less range than skirms but their shooting animation is instant so I'm sure they still do just fine at range. They're not gonna be "still an ok unit", they're gonna be a very strong unit, just a bit less OP than before.

Anyway I'd be fine with a 6 abus shipment, it's probably a good change. That shipment would obviously be really strong, but only if you have veterancy already, so it should be fine.

[deleted_user]

Are the Ottoman unit voice lines in Turkish or Arabic? @iamturk

[iamturk]

@deleted_user4 its turkish. (mams are arabic i guess)

[deleted_user]

I win.

[Mitoe]

I had an idea today

What if we made the mosque 50w and gave it a built limit of 10? I think if we do this and give it an aura that increases unit hp by like 10% or something, and villager gather rate by 3%, we could balance Otto super easily.

[Kawapasaka]

I had an idea today

What if we made the mosque 50w and gave it a built limit of 10? I think if we do this and give it an aura that increases unit hp by like 10% or something, and villager gather rate by 3%, we could balance Otto super easily.

And make Spahis trainable from them.