Ottomans Discussion Thread

[Riotcoke]

@bwinner I think your sioux vs otto is slightly wrong, can't sioux just spam rifle rider and wakina and otto can't do anything?

[bwinner]

Port just loses to Otto lol. I played that MU vs erik before the tourney and it wasn't close.

Also Iro can't ff vs Otto. We tried that MU and you got crushed.

Anyway, Otto is definitely not weak, and that +2 range abus doesn't make sense. You're probably the only one who believes it's fine.

I don't play it, I didn't know you had to nacked ff. Now if you look at it, the game I won vs rapha and made you think we need to nerf otto, he won that game with a nacked ff and then just threw deleting all his skirms with zeo anti cav vs spahis.
I am the only one who play otto ? (afaik I am sure I am not, don't confuse your opinion with the one of everyone)

[bwinner]

@bwinner I think your sioux vs otto is slightly wrong, can't sioux just spam rifle rider and wakina and otto can't do anything?

Well abus do very well vs rr and fair vs wakinas (in age 2), so if you apply enought pressure it will be hard to defend as sioux

[Kaiserklein]

colo abus crush wakinas lol, not even close

[Hazza54321]

@bwinner You're the only guy who dares to argue that otto isn't Op in a tournament setting. They win almost all their MUs lol.
Let's take a 3TP map and list the MUs (considering tournament settings it should be 4-5 but well).

India : Can't deal with abus, Otto wins unless you overcommit.

China : This one is close, but not China favoured. You can Jan/abus, revolt etc...

Japan : Another close one. Jan/abus and FF are still scary.

Iro: Can't counter abus in colonial, can't get away with an age up, EZ4Otto. Otto can even FF btw.

Aztec : I tried everything but it looks like you just can't beat a FF nor a well micro'd Jan/abus.

Sioux : I'm not sure about this one anymore but I think Otto should win.

Spain : Watch kaiser vs garja. Garja played well, didn't matter. Hazza vs rapha is painful too although Hazza slightly misplayed.

Dutch : Just FF, kill one bank, and Jan/abus/falc with 3 TPs wins.

France : bwinner vs rouga or rouga vs Soldier, not even close.

Germany : The only MU you lose, but Germany Op.

Brit : Close one, but not easy for brit.

Port : FF, Port can't deal with abus, GG.

Russia : Easy for botto.

So in the end, you only lose one match-up, and win more than half.
Otto is "one of the weakest civs"? xD

I think otto get rekt by german fre china brit dutch spain (when the maps not retarded) and sioux.

[Riotcoke]

Otto maybe just have the same problem as Germany, they're trash on non tp, but incredibly good on TP maps. Just like port and water so maybe just balance civs for their respective maps even if it's sort of bad for the game?

[gibson]

except german isnt trash on no tp

[Riotcoke]

except german isnt trash on no tp

Compared to it on tp, it's useless. Also the point rouga is trying to make is otto can't take a bad MU in a tournament where you know the map.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Otto maybe just have the same problem as Germany, they're trash on non tp, but incredibly good on TP maps. Just like port and water so maybe just balance civs for their respective maps even if it's sort of bad for the game?

That was the EP philosophy.
Back when GS was the EP leader, the goal was to balance the game around TP maps, because it is impossible to balance a TP dependent civ on both TP and no TP maps. I don't know what the EP philosophy is now though.

Anyway, removing the +2 abus range doesn't really affect otto on no TP maps. I'm fine with buffing otto on no TP maps as long as the 20 abus range non sense is removed.

[bwinner]

Otto maybe just have the same problem as Germany, they're trash on non tp, but incredibly good on TP maps. Just like port and water so maybe just balance civs for their respective maps even if it's sort of bad for the game?

That was the EP philosophy.
Back when GS was the EP leader, the goal was to balance the game around TP maps, because it is impossible to balance a TP dependent civ on both TP and no TP maps. I don't know what the EP philosophy is now though.

Anyway, removing the +2 abus range doesn't really affect otto on no TP maps. I'm fine with buffing otto on no TP maps as long as the 20 abus range non sense is removed.

What I especially don't understand is that the +2 range is rly not a problem, like in NYC I don't remember a game where someone went for age 3 abus, so how is that so broken ? Like, in heavy TP map, you anyway play more often age 2... So yeah the +2 range affects more maps where otto are not that strong.
Like on 5 TP maps, there is rly not many MUs where you don't want to play age 2. And that seem to be the problem for you, so why do you want to remove +2 range ?

Alternativly, if I have to bargain, what about +1 range un age 3 and +1 range in age 4 and then to make for it :
5 abus becomes 6 or even 7 abus shipment and you get the extra range with the age up and not with the vet/guard tech. What do you think about that ? @Diarouga (edited)

[[Armag] diarouga]

The issue is that abus are just too good in age 3 lol.
They are like skirmishers because they counter goons, but they also counter skirms and artillery. It's like the ultimate age 3 unit, which hard counters every unit but hand cav, and most civs can't afford to make a lot of hand cav against Otto.

[Riotcoke]

The issue is that abus are just too good in age 3 lol.
They are like skirmishers because they counter goons, but they also counter skirms and artillery. It's like the ultimate age 3 unit, which hard counters every unit but hand cav, and most civs can't afford to make a lot of hand cav against Otto.

Maybe just give abus a negative multipler vs ranged inf. Something like 0.75. And reverse the fire rate to 3.0 as it's just annoying.

[Sargsyan]

The issue is that abus are just too good in age 3 lol.
They are like skirmishers because they counter goons, but they also counter skirms and artillery. It's like the ultimate age 3 unit, which hard counters every unit but hand cav, and most civs can't afford to make a lot of hand cav against Otto.

Maybe just give abus a negative multipler vs ranged inf. Something like 0.75. And reverse the fire rate to 3.0 as it's just annoying.

what is the current rof ?

[Riotcoke]

The issue is that abus are just too good in age 3 lol.
They are like skirmishers because they counter goons, but they also counter skirms and artillery. It's like the ultimate age 3 unit, which hard counters every unit but hand cav, and most civs can't afford to make a lot of hand cav against Otto.

Maybe just give abus a negative multipler vs ranged inf. Something like 0.75. And reverse the fire rate to 3.0 as it's just annoying.

what is the current rof ?

3.5 it's not much of a nerf, it's more just annoying.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

[bwinner]

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

answering to me or riotcoke ?

[Kazamkikaz]

Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.

... Cutting any late game solution for otto would just bring them back to only rely on all in timming like on RE (exept this timming have received huge nerfs so otto would just suck).

Well that is why Portugal is a civ for lategame, otherwise we should change all age 4 musk and cassador cards upgrades to age 2 and 3. Not always u should change things in a civ in order to make it playable for any kind of style :Boom, lategame, rush, FF etc

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

answering to me or riotcoke ?

To riot.

[deleted_user]

Cheaper TCs and halved mosque costs is pretty gud. Otto's 'civ bonus' previously felt like an economic detriment. With 3 TCs it's more than a bit of an asset.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea India also gets rekt by abus.
If you're really worried about late game, we could give them +2 range in industrial.

Anyway, the fact that you defeated me and rapha in tournament games with Otto shows how op the civ is.
You also won a lot of rated games against kaiser.

... Cutting any late game solution for otto would just bring them back to only rely on all in timming like on RE (exept this timming have received huge nerfs so otto would just suck).

Well that is why Portugal is a civ for lategame, otherwise we should change all age 4 musk and cassador cards upgrades to age 2 and 3. Not always u should change things in a civ in order to make it playable for any kind of style :Boom, lategame, rush, FF etc

To be fair, otto is already one of the civ with the most options. Can ff, semi ff, rush, play late colonial with jan/abus, jan/huss, FI, revolt water boom etc.

[bwinner]

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

answering to me or riotcoke ?

To riot.

Well can you answer to my proposal then ?

Alternativly, if I have to bargain, what about +1 range un age 3 and +1 range in age 4 and then to make for it :
5 abus becomes 6 or even 7 abus shipment and you get the extra range with the age up and not with the vet/guard tech. What do you think about that ? @Diarouga (edited)

[Riotcoke]

Just remove bot civ.

[Kazamkikaz]

Show hidden quotes

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

answering to me or riotcoke ?

To riot.

Well can you answer to my proposal then ?

Alternativly, if I have to bargain, what about +1 range un age 3 and +1 range in age 4 and then to make for it :
5 abus becomes 6 or even 7 abus shipment and you get the extra range with the age up and not with the vet/guard tech. What do you think about that ? @Diarouga (edited)

If diarouga is fighting the +2 range this is even worse 6 or 7 abus in age 3 ? and "free" range up? If so longbowman should hv range free up in age3, no need card

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

Yea, this would be better imo. Anyway, the +2 range is absurd.

answering to me or riotcoke ?

To riot.

Well can you answer to my proposal then ?

Alternativly, if I have to bargain, what about +1 range un age 3 and +1 range in age 4 and then to make for it :
5 abus becomes 6 or even 7 abus shipment and you get the extra range with the age up and not with the vet/guard tech. What do you think about that ? @Diarouga (edited)

5 abus can become 6 abus, why not. You can buff abus in colonial, but it should have 18 range in fortress. 19 is already too much imo.

[deleted_user0]

Bwinner bargaining for Botto.

“Because he's the hero ESOC deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent jan lamer, a watchful abus spammer. A dark Botto."