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France iNcog
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30 Oct 2015, 18:54

This is the Iroquois Discussion thread, where several topics concerning this civilization on the ESOC Patch may be discussed. We're looking for feedback on the current state of balance, from the community's standpoint.
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China fei123456
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31 Oct 2015, 22:20

iro is really an UP civ now... every civ against iro: ff/semiff and win.
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31 Oct 2015, 22:53

Im fine with nerfing Iro early game but their late game eco just can't keep up with asian and euro civs. 99 villagers plus all iro eco upgrades just doesn't yield anything close to euro mill gather rates plus better eco cards like refrigeration and royal mint as well as 2 factories especially because the fire pit takes away from villager gather time. All native civs need access to something that can keep up with factories cuz a fire pit boom just doesn't compare.

one thing I would like to see looked into in future patches would be a larger variety/ more creative fire pit dances for all native civs. Dances that could boost gather rates or a dances that can behave much like the japanese golden pavilion are just random ideas. Maybe a dance that could heal idle wounded units instead of spawning useless healers or making the iro alarm dace actually useful would be nice by making them more like mm instead of awful archers that cant counter cav (which is what usually raids a base in the first place)

lets be honest... when it comes to aura abilities... the Iro WC is nice but is nothing near as OP as Japan Dyamo... I'm not sure who thought that a fast moving mobile barracks that can receive HC shipments and significantly boost atk was fair but the iro WC had to be nerfed...
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31 Oct 2015, 23:10

I generally agree with your point, but the issue comes down at least in part to civilization design.

Aztecs already have a healing dance ?? Iroquois and Sioux just don't get that.

Iroquois start the game with the War Chief, it doesn't require a shipment, it doesn't move as fast as cavalry, it cannot be freely revived with some villager-seconds and most importantly' Japanese aren't as strong as Iroquois on RE patch.

Improving the long-term viability of Iroquois is something worth looking into for future patches, I think.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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01 Nov 2015, 20:10

Iro's tp boom or semi ff are still good.
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Russia yurashic
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01 Nov 2015, 20:53

Move light cannon to age 3 to give them an option to counter artillery in fortress.
Palestine Mimsy for President
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03 Nov 2015, 15:09

Iro age 2 was op, now it's UP. Hence increasing aennas' cost is not appropriate in my opinion.
Netherlands momuuu
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06 Nov 2015, 13:08

So I'm wondering how people feel about iro? I've played them only a few times and they feel extremely weak really. Maybe the bottom civ on the patch for me.
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06 Nov 2015, 13:16

jerom wrote:So I''m wondering how people feel about iro? I''ve played them only a few times and they feel extremely weak really. Maybe the bottom civ on the patch for me.
I think exactly like you. In my opinion iro is the strongest (not the strongest civ, do not get me wrong) in early fortress because of its awesome skirms and in the long run zuta''s rule (aka more stuff rule) applies. Still I''m not a reference, Samwise did very well in the EP replays. Mitoe won vs China whereas I lost the only time I''ve played it. Let''s hope there will be some mu with iro tomorrow. [strike]Saturday Smackdown.[/strike] (no mirror ofc).

EDIT : I forgot there is no sat smack tomorrow :/
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No Flag Wuangaga
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06 Nov 2015, 15:23

Iro is in a pretty bad spot regarding a lot of matchups at the moment. It's age 2 play is barely viable, the semi-ff does fine but the iro eco does always hang behind in eco because there are no tier 2 market upgrades, so you have need abuse that point in time where enemies are following you up in age or try to get them stuck in age 2. So being patient to not overcommit is one of the most important things to look at as iro.
I'd say Iro got overnerfed, either reversing the aenna nerf or the warchief nerf would bring them in an okay spot again.
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No Flag migigyoku
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16 Nov 2015, 05:27

(Im sorry of my weird English)
Modifications which patches volunteers have created of the Iroquois is too terrible.
The cost to Aenna "meat 110" becomes a thing that gives a burden on the Iroquois of internal affairs,I feel the intention of " prohibit the Rush".
Aenna is the key unit of the Iroquois
this modification will lose attract to use the Iroquois.
It was also sealed the trading post start by further eliminating the tree from the starting resources
(which might be said to take trade by taking wood)
I suspect that the patch of authors thought like this.
"Do not Rush because we want to create internal affairs and then military victory."
Well,I agree such thought a bit, and I can also understand the current situation which 2R is hated.
But this change was deprived rush from the Iroquois.
After taking a trading post and Rush from the Iroquois,
only strategies are semi-FF without trade .
So I'm opposed to the Iroquois modifications in the ESO patch.
Iroquois user will be drastically reduced.(it this a pessimistic thought?)
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France [Armag] diarouga
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16 Nov 2015, 06:22

Iro's semi ff is ok, not good but it can beat France, port.
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16 Nov 2015, 06:33

Personally, I like how eso team forced iro to play in 3age. I was so tired to play vs a civ extremely fast in age 2. In my opinion they are not bad, of course not op anymore, but definitely a good civ.
110 aenna cost not sure if they did good, since aenna are not so good, almost of the players don't fight with chief. Decent players do that but still chief doesn't boost so much units now. Aenna without upgrades are not good imo, so 110 maybe could be a mistake. I mean, no sense pay 110 food for a bad unit, unless in some MUs. At least we can see all civs in tournament and that's good
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No Flag migigyoku
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16 Nov 2015, 07:16

Although it is late to say after the patch came out,
how about just abolish Age Up Fast, or abolish bonus of travois?
I wish authors may consider this suggestion.
In any case,110 aenna cost is a terrible change.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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16 Nov 2015, 09:16

Even without fast age up iro are op.
Abolish travois is dumb since it is iro's bonus, that s like abolishing shrines for japan, free vills for otto, cdb for France, manors for brit etc.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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16 Nov 2015, 09:38

I personally feel like iro is just a 'good' civ along with brit/fr/russia/japan now. They don't really win any matchups but they don't really lose any either. Iro can still go for a semi ff with a 2nd tc to catch up in eco against civs like france. In my opinion, the civ doesn't need any changing (considering discovery - industrial gameplay).
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No Flag Wuangaga
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16 Nov 2015, 11:35

Mr_Bramboy wrote:I personally feel like iro is just a 'good' civ along with brit/fr/russia/japan now. They don't really win any matchups but they don't really lose any either. Iro can still go for a semi ff with a 2nd tc to catch up in eco against civs like france. In my opinion, the civ doesn't need any changing (considering discovery - industrial gameplay).

Iro loses to German and China for sure. And has a hard time against most other civs with a good eco and the 2 falcs shipment, your eco pretty much falls off after the first 3-4 mins of fortress because that bonus from the shipments is gone, if you don't win it in that time there's a high chance you don't win at all.
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France iNcog
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16 Nov 2015, 13:30

replays, please, replays

super important to analyze timings from actual games
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Italy Garja
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16 Nov 2015, 15:09

Iro is still tier1 civ
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16 Nov 2015, 15:33

migigyoku wrote:(Im sorry of my weird English)
Modifications which patches volunteers have created of the Iroquois is too terrible.
The cost to Aenna "meat 110" becomes a thing that gives a burden on the Iroquois of internal affairs,I feel the intention of " prohibit the Rush".
Aenna is the key unit of the Iroquois
this modification will lose attract to use the Iroquois.
It was also sealed the trading post start by further eliminating the tree from the starting resources
(which might be said to take trade by taking wood)
I suspect that the patch of authors thought like this.
"Do not Rush because we want to create internal affairs and then military victory."
Well,I agree such thought a bit, and I can also understand the current situation which 2R is hated.
But this change was deprived rush from the Iroquois.
After taking a trading post and Rush from the Iroquois,
only strategies are semi-FF without trade .
So I'm opposed to the Iroquois modifications in the ESO patch.
Iroquois user will be drastically reduced.(it this a pessimistic thought?)
※日本語を英語に訳したのでひどい英文になっていますが、ご了承ください。

While the patch team acknowledges that the Iroquois have strong units by design, the Aenna at 100f is simply too cheap for its impressive base statistics. It won't be a great burden, but a slight one. As far as I know, the change is unrelated to prohibiting the rush in particular, but clearly related to nerfing Colonial Play in general. I assure you we do not want to make rushing less viable than it already is on most EP maps, but Iroquois on RE are simply so strong in so many ways. I can't say I agree with you that rushing is less viable now than any alternative strategy – the Iroquois are just weaker in general.

Please keep in mind that apart from ~-140w net starting crates (which is big) the changes to the civilization are rather small.

With that said, it is not at all unrealistic that a civilization that is played a lot simply on account of being OP will be played less when it is no longer OP. I would only consider the relatively negative to be pessimism though, so no I don't find it a pessimistic thought.
migigyoku wrote:Although it is late to say after the patch came out,
how about just abolish Age Up Fast, or abolish bonus of travois?
I wish authors may consider this suggestion.
In any case,110 aenna cost is a terrible change.

The patch is likely to receive updates, so it is not too late at all and it is very much appreciated. However, it is the opinion of the EP team that Iroquois on RE are OP for reasons other than The Messenger council politician (fast age-up), and that the Travois are inherent to the design of the civilization. If the civilization proves to need further changes I'm confident they will be granted.

Please keep play-testing the civilization(s) and give the patch an honest chance. Be wary of jumping to conclusions! DO NOT KROSS THE MANKL!!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"
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France [Armag] diarouga
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16 Nov 2015, 19:54

Garja wrote:Iro is still tier1 civ

Of course...
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16 Nov 2015, 22:40

If you take the starting trading post away from the Iroquois it makes them just so much weaker... They get all their strength from cards - good military shipments, 5 vills and 600 wood to boom, cards for infantry to play long-term age 2.

Aenna is one of few archer units that is actually good, it also compensates for bad tomahawks. +10 f is a big problem for relatively weak Iroquois economy.

Basically these changes turned Iroquois into second Aztec, but with free travois instead of the firepit and bad units. I think it definitely was an overnerf. If they need changes, those should be 7 aenna and 4 kanya nerfs.
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16 Nov 2015, 22:53

yurashic wrote:If you take the starting trading post away from the Iroquois it makes them just so much weaker... They get all their strength from cards - good military shipments, 5 vills and 600 wood to boom, cards for infantry to play long-term age 2.

Aenna is one of few archer units that is actually good, it also compensates for bad tomahawks. +10 f is a big problem for relatively weak Iroquois economy.

Basically these changes turned Iroquois into second Aztec, but with free travois instead of the firepit and bad units. I think it definitely was an overnerf. If they need changes, those should be 7 aenna and 4 kanya nerfs.

The entire idea of removing ~150w net is precisely to make them much weaker. The civilization gets its strength from absolutely everything except a strong base economy (compensated from 2 Travois by 3:30). 110f Aennas are still great and Tomahawks aren't bad at all.

If anything, this patch has turned them further away from a second Aztecs civilization.

Please see my previous post in this thread.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"
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Italy Garja
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16 Nov 2015, 22:58

Iro eco is not weak at all. You get a 700 resource politician and you get a TP + food and wood up from market. How is that weak? Also iro colonial units are like the 4th best in the game.
7 aenna and 4 kanya were pretty much untouchable because 6+6 aenna is bad design (besides being a 600f shipment) and 3 kanya is just terrible. Also 110f for aenna is still a pretty cheap cost.
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16 Nov 2015, 22:59

Apart from Travois, the Iroquois economy is whoreshit. Aztecs (sans FP) and Sioux level.

I agree, the units are great. I have no idea what people are thinking when they say otherwise, to be honest.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"

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