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No, that's bs. It is because of that and because of all other things. The "it's because they rush fast" is basically pr20 argument.
You said, RE iro won't be that good on EP maps. I tell you, RE iro would be hands down best civ even on EP maps, even tho it would be more balanced.

Let me quote you:

"- it has shit tons of resources and Iro usually benefit from mid resources map because they get way more stuff for free than let's say French."
Definitely not the case on RE maps?

somppukunkku wrote:Let me quote you:

"- it has shit tons of resources and Iro usually benefit from mid resources map because they get way more stuff for free than let's say French."
Definitely not the case on RE maps?

I just said that's one factor, but other things still matter. If momentum was the only thing then yes, stuff like heavy walling or CM ports would stop Iro which is simply not the case because of all other advantages.

-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Probably close but still RE Iro are better. Starting TP is what changes the MU in that case.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Garja wrote:You do get farm upgrades if you have the farm? Also 20% wood up.

If you have the farm, that's a big "if". You can't build a farm on a non wood start, and going for a TP is just better on wood starts.
And wood upgrade is totally irrelevant, as you're never going to gather enough wood for it to be worth.

That's not true. TP is meh for iro because you don't get the first xp on most maps, since you have to chop 100w before you can build the TP. So you get your 3 vils late and end up aging late.
Instead with the farm, you get 80 xp so it easily makes up for chopping 25w since you get 3v earlier. And the tier 1 farm upgrade is alright, especially since you usually have extra gold. And obviously it's op on livestock maps

play iro india now? @Kaiserklein

Yeah I'll come online soon

We lock drama threads immediately but not this pile of nerdy irrelevant ass

result

[Armag] diarouga wrote:-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Do you even hold the rush? I feel like you just die because you never get to age.

Kaiserklein wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Garja wrote:You do get farm upgrades if you have the farm? Also 20% wood up.

If you have the farm, that's a big "if". You can't build a farm on a non wood start, and going for a TP is just better on wood starts.
And wood upgrade is totally irrelevant, as you're never going to gather enough wood for it to be worth.

That's not true. TP is meh for iro because you don't get the first xp on most maps, since you have to chop 100w before you can build the TP. So you get your 3 vils late and end up aging late.
Instead with the farm, you get 80 xp so it easily makes up for chopping 25w since you get 3v earlier. And the tier 1 farm upgrade is alright, especially since you usually have extra gold. And obviously it's op on livestock maps

I think this is often overlooked with iro, a farm start is SO STRONG because the xp (early 3 vills) a way to use a bit of extra coin from treasures for what is essentially steel traps for a native civ, it raises your score by 4 (intimidation to an opponent) and a way to fatten livestock and guarantee a food supply on lower hunt maps. Chopping 25 wood for a longhouse is absolutely nothing compared to the farm benefits.

Goodspeed wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Do you even hold the rush? I feel like you just die because you never get to age.

iirc on the RE you could hold the rush. The scary thing was the Iro semi ff from my experience.

somppukunkku wrote:result

Lol obviously you had to show off with these games even if I was hangover like shit and played super bad. Anyway that's the games we played on another day...

Can we do something about this civ? It's literally the same as on RE whenever you get an xp treasure or a small wood treasure on wood start. You're able to fast age and rush just like good ol times. It's just op.
Some links:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430604377?t=1h13m
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430604377?t=1h27m30s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/433555279?t=1h11m

In fact, it's arguably even better than on RE because you start with 200 extra food, so you're sometimes able to fast age with a 14v or even 13v age up lol. In the second link I'm up at 2:45 with a shipment ready (or almost), it's just so absurd... And even if you didn't get a TP in age 1 you can chop and build it at like 4 min anyway lol.

And when you don't get to build a TP in age 1 or a big xp treasure, iros are still really strong, no matter what people say about it.

I'm not sure what nerf to propose though. I'll try to think about it and figure something out.

U crop my win away lol. And I played terrible those games. No way iros deserve nerf. You can only get "RE start" with perfect treasures. And if you fast age, you are punished with no age up reward and no fast age to fortress. lol.

They have weaknesses like no artillery and not good eco. Pace is their strength and of course should not be nerfed. Same as aztecs.

And btw, those are 3 good maps with renegados, atleast a few tps and a lot of good treas. Good iro maps.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Goodspeed wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Do you even hold the rush? I feel like you just die because you never get to age.

iirc on the RE you could hold the rush. The scary thing was the Iro semi ff from my experience.

re iro age2 destroys india. semi ff or ff works too tbh, but only on tp maps. age2 iro works on any map including water. tho on water you might want to semi fi.

Kaiserklein wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Garja wrote:You do get farm upgrades if you have the farm? Also 20% wood up.

If you have the farm, that's a big "if". You can't build a farm on a non wood start, and going for a TP is just better on wood starts.
And wood upgrade is totally irrelevant, as you're never going to gather enough wood for it to be worth.

That's not true. TP is meh for iro because you don't get the first xp on most maps, since you have to chop 100w before you can build the TP. So you get your 3 vils late and end up aging late.
Instead with the farm, you get 80 xp so it easily makes up for chopping 25w since you get 3v earlier. And the tier 1 farm upgrade is alright, especially since you usually have extra gold. And obviously it's op on livestock maps

you should get the pass on most maps actually, and where you don't, it's usually because the route is quite short so it's not that big of a deal if you miss one pass. since iro starts with so much wood, basically you just send 2v to wood asap, as soon as you have 100f and 100w gathered, you send 2 more. then 1 vil just collects the other food crates.

Overall somppu has a 42% winrate as india vs kaiser's iro while he has a 35% winrate vs kaiserklein overall, so if we take only their games as a reference, it shows that the MU is india favoured.

umeu wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Show hidden quotes

Goodspeed wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Do you even hold the rush? I feel like you just die because you never get to age.

iirc on the RE you could hold the rush. The scary thing was the Iro semi ff from my experience.

re iro age2 destroys india. semi ff or ff works too tbh, but only on tp maps. age2 iro works on any map including water. tho on water you might want to semi fi.

That was about Germans

Goodspeed wrote:

umeu wrote:

Show hidden quotes

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Goodspeed wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:-200w is a huge nerf, and that's why Iro went from top civ to average.
Also to be honest, RE Iro might well lose to Germany on EP maps with a wood start.

Do you even hold the rush? I feel like you just die because you never get to age.

iirc on the RE you could hold the rush. The scary thing was the Iro semi ff from my experience.

That was about Germans

re iro age2 destroys india. semi ff or ff works too tbh, but only on tp maps. age2 iro works on any map including water. tho on water you might want to semi fi.

ah, in that case ye, ger can hold the rush on some maps and starts.

Iroquois overpowered confirmed.

Wow, 4 games more than 4 min 10 secs.

as if it counts shit

bwinner1 wrote:Overall somppu has a 42% winrate as india vs kaiser's iro while he has a 35% winrate vs kaiserklein overall, so if we take only their games as a reference, it shows that the MU is india favoured.

This or maybe is it because Somppu was worse when they played their first games and he improved since then. Or because the other MUs he plays are worse.

Probably a bit of both actually.