France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

12 Nov 2019, 16:53

Yea i think nerfing the WC by 1/3 is not really significant becouse the best unit from iro is there FP and they are strong becouse they have more att than other skirm. But we will see.

For spain, i haven't see the forteress age stuff, so yea that can be cool. Anyway, the specific buff for spain are not significiant (the lancer stuff look usless to me, its better to send cav combat).
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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12 Nov 2019, 17:23

It is indeed significant. We even tested it already 2 years ago and it sucked.
Spain is the most buffed civ on EP, I think they're fine now.
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

12 Nov 2019, 18:01

WC aura with 15% = iro top civ
WC aura with 10% = iro bad civ?
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
ESOC Media Team
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ESO: mr_bramboy
Location: Amsterdam

12 Nov 2019, 18:18

chronique wrote:WC aura with 15% = iro top civ
WC aura with 10% = iro bad civ?

The reason for this is that iro's colonial becomes too weak, which leaves them vulnerable. I recall this change being tested in one of the first iterations and I also recall that it was reverted because iro became too weak.
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

12 Nov 2019, 18:55

This looks unbelievable to me
France flontier
Dragoon
Posts: 261
ESO: Flontier

12 Nov 2019, 19:22

Not sure whats the most op between the aura boost and the fact that this dude tanks 50k skirms shots while killing 5units in one shot.
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United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 3654
ESO: n0eL

12 Nov 2019, 19:27

I think the treasure/guardian changes are going to be a big change as well. A lot of games Iro is so strong in age 1/transition because of the converted army, and it snowballs from there with their unit strength.
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Great Britain Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 6230

12 Nov 2019, 19:32

flontier wrote:Not sure whats the most op between the aura boost and the fact that this dude tanks 50k skirms shots while killing 5units in one shot.

haha this
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French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Crossbow
Posts: 7
ESO: KEVINITALIEN

12 Nov 2019, 19:39

imo it's better to lower the hp of forest prowler instead of wc, after I do not know if it's better
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

12 Nov 2019, 20:26

FP himself are not so op (he as a litte more att and a little less hp than skrim and it's even in head to head, ofc the att is better for this kind of unit). In my opinion sioux and iro WC are too strong.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

12 Nov 2019, 21:12

chronique wrote:WC aura with 15% = iro top civ
WC aura with 10% = iro bad civ?

no, 5% is ok but it's significant.

iro units with 15% = very good
iro units with 10% = good
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French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Crossbow
Posts: 7
ESO: KEVINITALIEN

12 Nov 2019, 21:17

I agree but the aennas and tomawak are not so strong that its, their animation is so bad, if you nerf the WC, the iro age 2 would be really not strong tbh, i prefer to see the forest prowler and the iro goons nerf instead of WC tbh
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Canada Mitoe
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12 Nov 2019, 21:19

Could nerf the WC and buff Conservative Tactics from 10-15%. This keeps the rush and their Fortress in check without affecting their late Colonial too much aside from Kanya.
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French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Crossbow
Posts: 7
ESO: KEVINITALIEN

12 Nov 2019, 21:23

Mitoe wrote:Could nerf the WC and buff Conservative Tactics from 10-15%. This keeps the rush and their Fortress in check without affecting their late Colonial too much aside from Kanya.

i agree
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

12 Nov 2019, 22:25

conservative tactics is already OP no need to buff more :P
Australia Kawapasaka
Lancer
Posts: 584
Location: Wales (new, south)

12 Nov 2019, 22:27

Yeah wtf 10%/10% for multiple units in colonial is already uncommonly strong, game doesn't need another boyars. 30%/30% for all infantry in colonial, most civs can't even card their shit that much in fortress lol...
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8775
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

14 Nov 2019, 17:02

chronique wrote:Yea i think nerfing the WC by 1/3 is not really significant becouse the best unit from iro is there FP and they are strong becouse they have more att than other skirm. But we will see.

For spain, i haven't see the forteress age stuff, so yea that can be cool. Anyway, the specific buff for spain are not significiant (the lancer stuff look usless to me, its better to send cav combat).
I assure you, effectively nerfing the HP of the entire Iroquois army by about 5% is significant. Like the rest of the civilization's units, the Forest Prowler will be less strong with less HP.

Although I agree that it's only situationally significant, the fact that it is currently better to ship Cavalry Combat is part of the reason for buffing Caballeros. What do you think about also buffing Lancer cost by 10c?

Also – as usual – everything Garja says! I was hesitant to nerfing Iroquois, before establishing a general consensus among top players that the civilization warrants it. It's not often that Diarouga, Garja, Kaiserklein and Lordraphael agree on something.

chronique wrote:WC aura with 15% = iro top civ
WC aura with 10% = iro bad civ?
Now you're talking!
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8775
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

14 Nov 2019, 17:03

kevinitalien wrote:I agree but the aennas and tomawak are not so strong that its, their animation is so bad, if you nerf the WC, the iro age 2 would be really not strong tbh, i prefer to see the forest prowler and the iro goons nerf instead of WC tbh
Isn't Iroquois Colonial one of the strongest in the game?

Nerfing either unit is an option. Neither is ideal, though. Iroquois cavalry, while strong out of the gate, already struggles to maintain viability, in the late game, and the Forest Prowler is an iconic unit of the civilization, whose strength revolves around infantry. Keep in mind that either option were less significant, too.
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

14 Nov 2019, 17:03

Mitoe wrote:Could nerf the WC and buff Conservative Tactics from 10-15%. This keeps the rush and their Fortress in check without affecting their late Colonial too much aside from Kanya.
Part of the reason for nerfing the aura is that it affects Colonial performance, too. Should you wish to avoid that, wouldn't it make more sense to nerf Fortress only instead of adding a compensatory buff to an already strong shipment?

Do you think that nerfing Iroquois Colonial is undesirable? I've got the impression, from players, that it were prefered. I'm happy to poll it.
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France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

14 Nov 2019, 17:23

"Although I agree that it's only situationally significant, the fact that it is currently better to ship Cavalry Combat is part of the reason for buffing Caballeros. What do you think about also buffing Lancer cost by 10c?"

Probleme is, the lancer are not bad, they are inconsistent. If your lancer atta RI, they are so f... strong but in all other way they are bad or usless (you should know that lancer are not cost efficient vs age 2 mousket). And in overall, if your opponent are not bad, never your lancer touch the skirm. So i am not sure that reduce the cost are the best way, imo i like the idea of giving range att to lancer (maybe one range and +1 with card) with that your lancer will be better vs HI, still usless vs cav, more efficient at catching the RI, and will be less disturbed by your own rodo (i want see what happend if the lancer have 2 range att).
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

19 Nov 2019, 16:03

Spain need something too counter goon. I cant do anything vs early heavy goon timing from iro/fr for exemple. Maybe remove the age up 4piq/4xbow and add 8 xbow.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: Garja

19 Nov 2019, 16:24

musk semi with rods+musk in transition, also dogs help
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 235
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

19 Nov 2019, 16:55

Nop
Great Britain Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 6230

19 Nov 2019, 17:33

Idk dude semi delays ur age up by 2 minutes. Hes most likely established a good composition by then.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7748
ESO: Garja

19 Nov 2019, 20:49

You age at 9 min which is fine because you are training units in transition and get 4 huss from age up. If he pushes you that's great because you have the chance to trade all the garbage non uprgraded units and free pop space, doing so at point where a musk/rods/cav composition can still compete with skirm/goon because of the low numbers. Also your first card can be 2 falcs so you also trade those which are gonna be a burden later on.
For the record I won with this vs your France on Pampas Sierras.

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