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yeah and i fucked the queen

Hazza54321 wrote:yeah and i fucked the queen

Ew

I have play plenty of game recently vs fr and iro, and my point is :

1) rodo are usless becouse 20 rodo can do nothing vs 10 goon at 8.30
2) mousket looks a little better but same, mousket rodo are not realy good vs 5 goon + 8 skirm (and full mousket can chase 10 goon but nothing more).
3) 4 hussard and 8 piq are obviously pretty usless vs goon (i need to try 4piq / 4 xbow but this up is realy weird).

So i need a lot of rec to be convinced

Hazza54321 wrote:yeah and i fucked the queen

what part don't you agree on

chronique wrote:I have play plenty of game recently vs fr and iro, and my point is :

1) rodo are usless becouse 20 rodo can do nothing vs 10 goon at 8.30
2) mousket looks a little better but same, mousket rodo are not realy good vs 5 goon + 8 skirm (and full mousket can chase 10 goon but nothing more).
3) 4 hussard and 8 piq are obviously pretty usless vs goon (i need to try 4piq / 4 xbow but this up is realy weird).

So i need a lot of rec to be convinced

you only buy time really, then once in fortress you're mostly fine. Have to trap him if he starts poking.

Garja wrote:

Hazza54321 wrote:yeah and i fucked the queen

what part don't you agree on

i was just messing, however if i recall correctly i didnt ff and i also mismicro'd

If you loose your entire army you are not fine at all. Your eco is not realy better.

If you trade it for his units it's fine and actually helps you more than him. I mean we all know how Spain-Fre plays out. It's not like you gonna be at much advantage but your units are harder counter and you get a better shipment flow meaning you can adapt you combo better.
Anyway you can also just standard FF and play eco. It doesn't grant any specific advantage over French but it's pretty solid way to play. You gotta bear in mind what Spain lacks in terms of eco it makes up with faster shipment progression.

That is the point, all shipment from spain sux vs goon.

You produce units that counter goons. You ship stuff that counter the other units.

This discussion is pure theory. In practise i can't have enought stuff for deal with early goon. So can you give me some rec pls?

10 musks in transition? Musks and skirms of the same level of upgrades do equal damage to goons, skirms have a range advantage yeah, but musks have equal range to goons so they work just fine

You have to spam skirms.
I wouldn't train musks, they're useless against skirm/goon.
Still a hard MU, but not as bad as what Spain players think.

I don't see how you deal with early goons without training musk in transition

bwinner wrote:I don't see how you deal with early goons without training musk in transition

You train skirms and dogs.

You cant train skirm age 2 and if you make zero unit in transition, you die. Your opponent is in your base before your age 3 and if you wait your age, you will stack 600 good/600 food.

If you're FFing you can totally just train skirms and be fine. Also you have like 3-5 anticav shipments just to scare goons away until you build enough skirm mass. Also ye, dogs are very good against goons because goons don't really have high base damage per cost so a dog is as tanky as 1 huss basically.
If you semi FF you just make musks and rods and dogs and commit with these units to take down some goons. Also TC and tower fire do well vs goons and mm are great too. Early aggression is not really the problem.

You don't want your tower next to the tc. And make scared the goon are not cost efficient at all. So maybe just ff like usual :/

Its more like trading off your hand infantry poorly to get a ranged inf mass going. His goons get alot of free kills but ur musk/skirm mass grows. Thats just how it works until he mixes skirms.

Ye pretty much.
Also "if you make zero unit in transition, you die", that's just bs. You can hold a lot of stuff with just dogs TC fire and mm. I'd say up to 8 huss semi and any musk semi but 2x rax (which is the reason why you consider musk semi yourself).
Anyway you can also train rods in transition, which is a unit you will likely to keep producing and upgrade in fortress. Goons take free kills on rods but they still take forever to kill them and if they poke too much they might get snared or trapped entirely. Also it's just a bad idea to fuck around TC because they will get free shots from it and form the tower as well as getting snared by rods and shoot by mm. Id' even sack the 4 huss to snare and kill 2 or so goons.

When i said "die" i mean "take some significant domage that makes you behind". Anyway we are just disagree, waste rodo for saving time is largly in favour of the goon player in my opinion.

Recently, after the release of EP7, Kaiserklein expressed concern about Iroquois being too strong – particularly with food treasures – and advocated removing a food crate (which makes sense, as a partial revert), instead of nerfing the War Chief's aura. It is something I considered, for EP7, but elected against, at the risk of it being an overnerf, with potentially adverse effects (which some feedback also indicated).

While I don't intend to make any further changes to Iroquois, at this time, and I'm sceptical towards balancing specific civilizations around treasures, more input on whether -100f, instead of the War Chief aura nerf, would be an overnerf – or otherwise bad – would be helpful, going forward.

In the mean time, let's give the current iteration a while to settle!