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France iNcog
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30 Oct 2015, 18:55

This is the Spanish Discussion thread, where several topics concerning this civilization on the ESOC Patch may be discussed. We're looking for feedback on the current state of balance, from the community's standpoint.
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No Flag pikadasgalaxias
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05 Nov 2015, 01:04

I do not understand how a person with an armor that weighs many kilograms can run as fast as a horse. You have to review the rodeleiro speed to be more real.
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Germany yemshi
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05 Nov 2015, 17:49

Never watched a coyote runner?
No Flag pikadasgalaxias
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05 Nov 2015, 18:29

coyote corridor runs with no armor
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France [Armag] diarouga
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05 Nov 2015, 18:30

pikadasgalaxias wrote:coyote corridor runs with no armor
but with more rr than rods.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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05 Nov 2015, 18:32

pikadasgalaxias wrote:I do not understand how a person with an armor that weighs many kilograms can run as fast as a horse. You have to review the rodeleiro speed to be more real.
I agree. Also, why don''t lancers just one shot everything?
No Flag pikadasgalaxias
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05 Nov 2015, 18:36

bramboy wrote:
pikadasgalaxias wrote:I do not understand how a person with an armor that weighs many kilograms can run as fast as a horse. You have to review the rodeleiro speed to be more real.
I agree. Also, why dont lancers just one shot everything?
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New Zealand zoom
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06 Nov 2015, 00:45

+1
Effective ESOC Patch notes

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United States of America lesllamas
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06 Nov 2015, 01:20

To bring things on topic, I think the buffs to Spain were overly cautious compared to the buffs Dutch/Port got. Given that they were arguably the weakest civ among those that were buffed, it seems that Spain is actually more broken in design than people consider. I mean broken in that if their fortress play is buffed to a level similar to france, they would be incredibly strong given the xp advantage and how hard it is to stop them from reaching fort in most MU's.

Each incremental buff to Spain's fortress play is a direct buff to their viability. The way I see it, buffing Spain's fortress in such a way that they can easier mass skirms/goons would be strong.

IMO, a good place to start looking for things to fix would be their age up politicians.


Also, I'm not sure if this is just Spain specific, but I've been toying around with theorycrafting balance changes with ATP for a while. I would be interested to see Otto's silk road effect bundled into ATP (removing silk road and giving otto ATP), nerfing the crate bonus and buffing slightly the extra res given by TP's. I think a change like this would help Spain have viable mid to late colonial economic play, given that they have access to all crates and 5/4 vill, giving Spain a lot of impactful colonial cards to send in order to compete with civs like brit/russia in colonial with musk/huss. I think this could open up some colonial options for Port too, giving them a viable age 1 card to send.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 Nov 2015, 06:10

Spain is a ff civ and we will not change fast.
There's no way we'll give them 400w or fast age up politician or HI shipments.
If we have to buff spain more that'd be like 5 lancers instead of 4, +2% exp like in nilla or +1 rod attack like in nilla.
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United States of America lesllamas
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06 Nov 2015, 09:28

diarouga wrote:Spain is a ff civ and we will not change fast.
There''s no way we''ll give them 400w or fast age up politician or HI shipments.
If we have to buff spain more that''d be like 5 lancers instead of 4, +2% exp like in nilla or +1 rod attack like in nilla.
So I understand wanting to tweak things slowly and incrementally. It makes sense and I don''t think anybody is arguing for a civ to be completely overhauled overnight.

But addressing a few things: "Spain is a ff civ"--this is kind of a stupid statement to be honest with you. Spain is a FF civ because their current options dictate as much. But the entire point of a patch is to better balance the game, not reinforce an existing meta. You should know this. And Spain''s current design is broken because....

"5 lancers instead of 4, +2% exp like in nilla or +1 rod attack like in nilla"

None of those changes would really help Spain become a viable civ. Their current fortress play is broken because when their shipments aren''t powerful enough to break standard compositions, they fall over without any trouble. But when their shipments are powerful enough to break through standard compositions, it''s because they''ve reached an overload with mass or stats. Buffing lancer and rod shipments aren''t going to do anything to deal with Spain''s real fortress weaknesses. Because Spain ships melee units, they have a hard breakpoint for balance--either the units are completely ineffective against compositions like goon/skirm or they absolutely destroy compositions like goon/skirm. There is not a soft gray area for balancing melee units vs ranged in most games (something you may not know, but I suspect you do), and Spain in AoE3 is no exception.

I actually had hoped some of the people working on the patch would have realized this about spain. Trying to buff them by buffing their melee unit shipments is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. It shows to me a lack of critical thinking and understanding of basic game design and theory.

After putting you on blast, though, I feel compelled to say that I understand why you and other players (whom I expect have never had any experience designing or balancing a game as professionals) would look at Spain this way. It hearkens back to when Spain was strong in nilla, and it''s tempting to try to "get Spain back to the way it was," but nilla was such a different game that you can''t try to fit a square peg back into a round hole.

I would urge the team working on Spain''s balance to look into areas other than fortress age unit shipments and their corresponding units'' stats or xp trickle.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 Nov 2015, 09:39

Do you understand that we want to keep the uniqueness of spain?

Sure, we could buff their semi ff with a fast age up politician and then spain is just a clone of france, because they'd go cav or musk semi every games.
We could also give them a 400w politician and musk upgrades in colonial and then they'd be just like brit but with a worse eco and no lb and would still ff.

Our goal is to balance the civ but we do not want to change the way they are played.
And I fail to see how buffing their shipments wouldn't balance them. With some testings we can reach the point were spain can have the critical mass to break his opponent without being op.

You could argue the same thing for other civs, like we should give musk and a decent cav to china to make their colonial play viable but that's not what we want.

If you look at other rts, like sc2, when blizzard makes a patch, the race uniqueness isn't changed, protoss still have good units but are slow, zerg still mass as fuck and terran still be terran.
You won't see them giving op units to zerg or allowing toss to be fast.
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No Flag drumal
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06 Nov 2015, 10:20

but tp on TAD is cheaper so boost xp for spain seems to me like first thing to do.. to save main and most characteristic attribute

And in name of uniqueness, +1% to unction card or reduce slightly cost of missionaries would be great

But these rods shipments.. lol is just ... on TAD the are weak and useless and +1 rod will do same shit job like no patch shipments. Spain eco in colonial sux, in FF there is no eco. so if I send or train rods (cause they are my unic units) I need to make them something not just die in sec, pls make them at least decent..
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06 Nov 2015, 10:29

i think u should give spain instant 100 wood more so they eirher got 200 wood 100 gold or 300 wood.. thats all they need
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United States of America lesllamas
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06 Nov 2015, 10:37

diarouga wrote:Do you understand that we want to keep the uniqueness of spain?

Sure, we could buff their semi ff with a fast age up politician and then spain is just a clone of france, because they''d go cav or musk semi every games.
We could also give them a 400w politician and musk upgrades in colonial and then they''d be just like brit but with a worse eco and no lb and would still ff.

Our goal is to balance the civ but we do not want to change the way they are played.
And I fail to see how buffing their shipments wouldn''t balance them. With some testings we can reach the point were spain can have the critical mass to break his opponent without being op.

You could argue the same thing for other civs, like we should give musk and a decent cav to china to make their colonial play viable but that''s not what we want.

If you look at other rts, like sc2, when blizzard makes a patch, the race uniqueness isn''t changed, protoss still have good units but are slow, zerg still mass as fuck and terran still be terran.
You won''t see them giving op units to zerg or allowing toss to be fast.
What uniqueness? Spain is literally the most vanilla civ that exists in the game. The civilization bonus is supposed to be centered around having a lot of shipments. And if you check my initial suggestion for something to look at, it involves changing a shipment, which affects TP''s, which give more shipments, and make those shipments better, etc.

And no, you can''t balance spain by buffing their melee unit shipments unless you want to change the units at their core, which would be much more radical than proposing a rework of a never used card in order to amplify Spain''s only unique civilization bonus. "With some testing" is a redundant argument that says nothing about the nature of Lancer/Rod in this game.

Saying "we do not want to change the way they are played" is, again, a terrible mindset for balancing purposes. Spain''s fortress is fundamentally broken in its current state, and just because it is currently the best option does not mean it is defining of the civilization [i style="font-weight:bold'"]independent of an established metagame in the competitive community[/i].

There are other "broken" things in AoE3, like the design of native warchiefs, but they''re much more central to the stylistic and mechanical purpose of their respective civilizations. A strategy/BO is not central to stylistic and mechanical purposes of a civilization, and it should never be considered a fundamental aspect of the civilization itself such that you attempt to [i style="font-weight:bold'"]preserve it[/i] when making balance decisions.
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United States of America lesllamas
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06 Nov 2015, 10:41

It would be like balancing Garen back in 2010 by only tweaking the stats on Sunfire Cape, just because it was the only build anyone ever did because it was strictly better than any other option.



Edit to avoid triple posting:


Additionally, your narrow mindedness is showing through quite clearly. I suggested experimentation with age up politicians, and you replied as though I had suggested specific balance changes (such as giving them 400w or fast age up), which probably only popped into your mind because they're the only ones you'd see as useful. This is a perfect example of how you're looking at balance through the lens of an established competitive meta, and it restricts both your ability to solve balance problems creatively and intelligently. The wonderful thing about a patch is that you can change whatever you want, and there's no rule stating that copy/pasting other useful age up politicians onto Spain is the only way to change their age up politicians. Hence, I suggested experimenting--a place where testing and retesting would actually be useful and informative.

I do not like to insult others, but I do not think you have the mindset of a person capable of balancing a game. I would not hire you, and I doubt many others in my line of work would either for this task.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 Nov 2015, 11:31

You're wrong.
I'm not narrow minded, I'm just right and you're super arrogant to think you know better than the 20 best players in this game.
I just don't want to argue more with a caporal or so, if you really understand the meta or the balance, you should be colonel up which you are not.

I won't reply to you since I'm not here to be insulted by people who're clueless about balance.
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India _DB_
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06 Nov 2015, 11:38

diarouga wrote:If we have to buff spain more that''d be like 5 lancers instead of 4, +2% exp like in nilla or +1 rod attack like in nilla.
Yep. I exactly want to agree on that change. Spain really need that 2% exp, cuz they really suck on non tp maps, even if it doesn''t affect them much.

5 lancer shipment would be pretty good to make the nilla type lancer FF more viable in TAD. I really wish to see those changes in next version.

Idk what the hell was tad producers were thinking when they nerfed spain in tad where skirm was not a broken unit.
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India _DB_
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06 Nov 2015, 11:45

lesllamas wrote:It would be like balancing Garen back in 2010 by only tweaking the stats on Sunfire Cape, just because it was the only build anyone ever did because it was strictly better than any other option.



Edit to avoid triple posting:


Additionally, your narrow mindedness is showing through quite clearly. I suggested experimentation with age up politicians, and you replied as though I had suggested specific balance changes (such as giving them 400w or fast age up), which probably only popped into your mind because they''re the only ones you''d see as useful. This is a perfect example of how you''re looking at balance through the lens of an established competitive meta, and it restricts both your ability to solve balance problems creatively and intelligently. The wonderful thing about a patch is that you can change whatever you want, and there''s no rule stating that copy/pasting other useful age up politicians onto Spain is the only way to change their age up politicians. Hence, I suggested experimenting--a place where testing and retesting would actually be useful and informative.

I do not like to insult others, but I do not think you have the mindset of a person capable of balancing a game. I would not hire you, and I doubt many others in my line of work would either for this task.
lol
The EP is not supposed to change the meta completely by giving Spain 400w and fast age up. You have to understand the originality of the civ and buff their existing bonus, not to additional bonuses.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Nov 2015, 11:49

@lesllamas you bring up some valid points, but would you agree that if there is a way to fix Spain that doesn't standardize them but rather uses something that is unique about the civ and makes it viable, we should choose that way over the standardizing way?

Personally I would vouch for an unction buff.
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United States of America Cometk
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06 Nov 2015, 11:54

i liked interjection's idea of a colonial age upgrade card to boost both melee infantry and xbows. at the very least, it works flavor-wise

@calmyourtits, what are your ideas on an unction buff?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 Nov 2015, 12:11

cometk wrote:i liked interjection''s idea of a colonial age upgrade card to boost both melee infantry and xbows. at the very least, it works flavor-wise

@calmyourtits, what are your ideas on an unction buff?

Bow/pikes is bad anyway and it''d change the meta if it works.
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United States of America Cometk
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06 Nov 2015, 12:16

well it fits the civs flavor and doesn't standardize them. if it were still bad, it wouldn't affect the meta
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 Nov 2015, 12:20

I think it'd be bad, in which case it is a useless change, otherwise it definitely affect the meta.
No Flag umeu
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06 Nov 2015, 12:23

insert quote here

eh, spain which civ bonus should be fast exp, is getting out exp'd by fucking aztecs... not even on a shit ton of warpriest, but with just 1-4.

i think enough said. even germany with an early tp has about the same fucking shipments as spain =______________=

imo spain should get a new civ bonus. for example not just receive shipments faster, but also send them faster. like 33-50% faster.


spain is already viable btw, pretty sure they beat iro now, and im confident i can consistently (75%+) take out russia (which musket does as well with colo play even), dutch (well dont know never played vs new dutch), brits, otto, ports, india, perhaps china. so that puts them solidly in the middle.

its just they really lose hard to sioux, aztecs and japan. as well as not doing to well vs germany and france.

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