Spanish Discussion Thread

[deleted_user0]

meteor hammers have more range. it's more like urumi. also lancers only get 1 range, i dont know how useful it will be

[gamevideo113]

meteor hammers have more range. it's more like urumi. also lancers only get 1 range, i dont know how useful it will be

If i had to guess, lancers will always be able to hit the other unit first, which means they will kill it earlier and recieving less damage.
E.g.
In the same time that the lancer hit the musk 4 times, the musk was only able to hit the lancer 3 times whereas before it might have been a 4-4.
Also, i think lancer will be better at switching targets once they kill one unit i think. Kinda like meteors which don't waste time pathing around during fights, but to a lesser extent.

[deleted_user0]

meteor hammers have more range. it's more like urumi. also lancers only get 1 range, i dont know how useful it will be

If i had to guess, lancers will always be able to hit the other unit first, which means they will kill it earlier and recieving less damage.
E.g.
In the same time that the lancer hit the musk 4 times, the musk was only able to hit the lancer 3 times whereas before it might have been a 4-4.
Also, i think lancer will be better at switching targets once they kill one unit i think. Kinda like meteors which don't waste time pathing around during fights, but to a lesser extent.

maybe, but you'll have to send a card which only affects lancers. Lancers vs melee units is usually vs age2. It will be hard to send a card which doesn't immediately gives you units when you're fighting vs age2 pressure.

[gamevideo113]

@deleted_user that's true. Still, i wouldn't rule it out completely once you're already 3-4 shipments in because it gives you an immense damage boost versus said age2 pressure (which will be made mostly of infantry). You'd probably go 2 falcs 9 rods 5 lancers 4 lancers and then maybe caballeros?

[pecelot]

you could skip the rods and age with pikes or send 8 pikes in age 2

[gamevideo113]

By the time i get to the fortress age i have already deleted all my pikes, most likely

[Garja]

lancer extra range is nasty af, infantry units dont meele them if you're not watching which results in getting even more rekt than usual.

[dansil92]

lancer extra range is nasty af, infantry units dont meele them if you're not watching which results in getting even more rekt than usual.

Out of curiosity (i have not had a chance to test it) does the range allow rodeleros to slip in between lancers and other units?

[deleted_user0]

tbh, melee at range is an interesting concept. I think it's worth experimenting with it in the case of for example halbediers. want to make it less useless? instead of hp or speed buffs, maybe give it a range buff. 2 range on halb melee or something. pikemen should probably also have like 1 melee range. it's kinda the entire point of having a pike.

[dansil92]

tbh, melee at range is an interesting concept. I think it's worth experimenting with it in the case of for example halbediers. want to make it less useless? instead of hp or speed buffs, maybe give it a range buff. 2 range on halb melee or something. pikemen should probably also have like 1 melee range. it's kinda the entire point of having a pike.

This was discussed at some point as a suggestion of mine. It seems like a legitimate way to improve viability of hand infantry. I have a friend making a mod and he found giving pikes melee range stopped cav from escaping snare, making them better than musketeers in some ways- in other words, it gives an incentive to train them situationally instead of just being useless to musk-having civs.


on another note

What if spain recieved their shipments 25% (or some other number) faster? Eg. 30 seconds to arrive instead of 40 (45 seconds for mercs). I feel like this plays onto their shipment related civ bonus, would be a small buff basically the whole game, and honestly, part of the spanish consulate techs.... so sort of already in the game. It would get them their 3 vills a bit faster, 700 coin a bit faster, give them a little more tempo without hopefully being too game breaking. Thoughts?

[gamevideo113]

Yes the quicker shipments was already suggested some time ago but the idea was dropped for some reason. I was recently thinking about it, imo it could be what spain needs. Recieving shipments in less time synergizes well with the civ design (making it a good change esthetically speaking), and also helps them a lot in early colonial or fortress, where they might have a couple of shipments stacked. What's the point of having lots of shipments if you have to wait forever for them to arrive?
My concern was about having both this and 33% cheaper shipments (nilla spain, which seemed a popular suggestion) at the same time. Would it be too strong maybe? Surely it can be tested.

[gamevideo113]

Tercio tactics: turns pikemen into rodeleros and grants the veteran rodelero upgrade.

[Kawapasaka]

Tercio tactics: turns pikemen into rodeleros and grants the veteran rodelero upgrade.

I don't think would change anything. The main problem with the card is still the unanswerable question: What in God's name are you doing with 50 pikes as colonial Spain in the first place?

[gamevideo113]

@Kawapasaka You can get 8 from the age up, can then ship 12 and 10 once you’re up. Not a whole lot, sure, but the 1000 resources breakpoint would be at 30 pikes considering the 400 resources of the upgrade.

[Kawapasaka]

@Kawapasaka You can get 8 from the age up, can then ship 12 and 10 once you’re up. Not a whole lot, sure, but the 1000 resources breakpoint would be at 30 pikes considering the 400 resources of the upgrade.

Fair point, but then again, sending two crappy shipments just to get break-even value from the third does not sound like something that's worth breaking your tempo for as the most tempo-reliant civ.
Of course you could also train pikes to get extra value, but melee infantry isn't something that you ever want to over-make (despite Rods being some of the best), whereas with other transform cards like France's - well, you can never really over-make skirms.

[gamevideo113]

You have a point. The card wouldn’t become insanely good, probably it would get from absolute trash to “somewhat usable”. Honestly i think that even if the card was “huss+rod+pike veteran upgrades for free” it wouldn’t be broken, since spain usually doesn’t want to make lots of pikes and hussars in the fortress age.

[Jets]

I've only made this account to point out that Spain it's clearly a civ that is outclassed by every other civ in many aspects unless you have a great comprehension of macro mechanics. On one hand you have the fast shipments of your HC, but none of them are very caracteristic of this civ, you won't spam rods to win a battle. On the other hand you have civs with very crucial shipments like germany with the 9 Uhlan shipment, euro civs with 8 skirmishers, and many more. Why don't you give Spain a shipment that is worth all the time waiting to age to Fortress?
I have thought of 7/8 Lancers like its a huge boost to your army. And add some native shipments like 6/8 Conquistador for 900gold on Fortress, that would bring a new aspect on doing FF, plus having Conquistadors on your deck makes a lot of sense since it's an spanish unit on context.
Tercio Tactics it's a very unused card that doesn't make sense a all, why would you change your units to a very similar type of unit? Maybe do something like a %10HP ATCK bonus on pikes, rods and maybe musks, since historically Tercios were a three on one armed unit. Thus will make Tercio tactics a lategame card to boost your units.

[chronique]

8 lancier shipment :p

[Hazza54321]

if were talking about context then why does spain have the 2nd worst eco in the game and no 1k gold shipment .
For real though nilla xp curve would make spain ok i think. You keep mentioning how spain is already highly buffed by realistically only the unit shipments are the relevant buffs. (you dont get to the point of shipping unction and spanish gold is just way too situational)

[yurashic]

You have a point. The card wouldn’t become insanely good, probably it would get from absolute trash to “somewhat usable”. Honestly i think that even if the card was “huss+rod+pike veteran upgrades for free” it wouldn’t be broken, since spain usually doesn’t want to make lots of pikes and hussars in the fortress age.

A shipment that would upgrade all your colonial age units (rod-musk-bow-pike-huss) to veteran would be great actually, I think that would be a good buff. If you send this card after Spanish gold your age 3 unit shipments become somewhat decent.

[chronique]

Yea xp bonus like nilla could be good, but that option is not on the table.

[dansil92]

If unction was a default missionary ability not requiring a card and the shipment shipped 3-5 missionaries or lowered their cost & train time i think it would be far less situational, letting you drop a church and train them as convenient even just 3 or 4, as spanish gold and 1000 wood comes in, etc

I think playing on that unique ability to buff their skirms is better than adding cards or changing civ design

[Jets]

Age 2 shipments: Tercio Tactics(10% ATK & HP buff to rods, pykes, hussars & lancers) buff all melee units.
8 Xbows
Age 3 shipments: 9 Conquistadors for 800g
Cabalry Combat: Grants buffs to all cab units(not only huss & lancer), some matches might need dragoons that dont get behind the others civs goons.
8 Settlers shipment

I think Tercio Tactics if completely useless and should be one of Spain unique cards, out of the standard european buff cards. Maybe chage it to be some kind of melee boyars could be a good use of the card and give spain the oportunity of staying in colonial. It's quite remarkable that spain doesn't shine at it's best, because most of the things you can do, there's always a different civ that can make it better; also they have a shitty eco based on settlers. I'm not trying to break the spain style of playing but i really think some natives/merc shipments could be quite useful against Germay FF, China FF, France FF, Otto FI

[Jaeger]

tbh, melee at range is an interesting concept. I think it's worth experimenting with it in the case of for example halbediers. want to make it less useless? instead of hp or speed buffs, maybe give it a range buff. 2 range on halb melee or something. pikemen should probably also have like 1 melee range. it's kinda the entire point of having a pike.

Yeah that's actually really good, that might make pike a better anticav than musk, which is how it should be. Now that the DE is just around the corner, it's time to experiment a little more crazily and not be afraid of such changes.

[iNcog]

tbh, melee at range is an interesting concept. I think it's worth experimenting with it in the case of for example halbediers. want to make it less useless? instead of hp or speed buffs, maybe give it a range buff. 2 range on halb melee or something. pikemen should probably also have like 1 melee range. it's kinda the entire point of having a pike.

Yeah that's actually really good, that might make pike a better anticav than musk, which is how it should be. Now that the DE is just around the corner, it's time to experiment a little more crazily and not be afraid of such changes.

I actually kind of like it.

But it would change balance too much, it would be too big of a buff to pikes, which are a figured-out unit. Halbs why not? but I doubt they'd bite