Spanish Discussion Thread

[deleted_user0]

spain isnt limited in colonial, spain is just vulnerable when it transitions, being it from colo to fortress or trying to transition from their agressive melee early fortress comp into a more long term comp.

I didnt express myself properly. I didnt want to mean they had no options in colonial. Its just that they do quite bad compared to French or Brit.
Anyway, overall, Spain is not THAT bad.

well ye but those are the best long term euro colo civs in the game. Only otto is a contender, and otto dominates more early game than late. Yet its possible for spain to outrush both france and brits early in the game. But ye its hard, and they arent as good because a weaker eco ofc.

[deuxballesman]

I didnt express myself properly. I didnt want to mean they had no options in colonial. Its just that they do quite bad compared to French or Brit.
Anyway, overall, Spain is not THAT bad.

well ye but those are the best long term euro colo civs in the game. Only otto is a contender, and otto dominates more early game than late. Yet its possible for spain to outrush both france and brits early in the game. But ye its hard, and they arent as good because a weaker eco ofc.?

I would say that russia is the best late colo euro civ but they have other problems...

[deleted_user0]

ye i forgot about russia, russia should be replaced with france actually. france is better in the mid colo play. spain's colonial army is actually on par with france's but they just cant mass as much usually. and they cant save up a little and then age fast either making them worse overall.

while they can match russia and brits economically for a while, the problem there is that they dont have the neccesary upgrades for musketeers to win out.

[Atomiswave]

How about reducing explorer's war dog price to 50 food? It's not a big buff, but it will certainly make war dogs more cost efficient and help early game treasure hunting.

[Jaeger]

How about reducing explorer's war dog price to 50 food? It's not a big buff, but it will certainly make war dogs more cost efficient and help early game treasure hunting.

That would be a nice boost, but dogs are already super cost effective, and in my opinion if the only reason a civ is good is because one aspect of them is really really good (such as BR for sioux), then the civ is broken. Reducing the cost of dogs to 50f wouldn't make spain broken, but it would be very frustrating to play against especially since it would dominate even more on maps with good treasures, and there could be a large gap in spain's strength just based on weather a map has OP treasures or not.

For wardogs, what I would like though is like a 30%+ reduction in wardog's training time so you can spam them more consistently during a fight.

For spain in general, I would like to see either umeu's idea (shipments arrive 50% faster once you select them) or each crate shipment containing +100 resources (i.e. 800w and 800g instead of 700w and 700). This may require a rollback on some of the buffs though

[Atomiswave]

How about reducing explorer's war dog price to 50 food? It's not a big buff, but it will certainly make war dogs more cost efficient and help early game treasure hunting.

That would be a nice boost, but dogs are already super cost effective, and in my opinion if the only reason a civ is good is because one aspect of them is really really good (such as BR for sioux), then the civ is broken. Reducing the cost of dogs to 50f wouldn't make spain broken, but it would be very frustrating to play against especially since it would dominate even more on maps with good treasures, and there could be a large gap in spain's strength just based on weather a map has OP treasures or not.

For wardogs, what I would like though is like a 30%+ reduction in wardog's training time so you can spam them more consistently during a fight.

For spain in general, I would like to see either umeu's idea (shipments arrive 50% faster once you select them) or each crate shipment containing +100 resources (i.e. 800w and 800g instead of 700w and 700). This may require a rollback on some of the buffs though

Now when i think of it you are right, for 50 food everybody would train at least one dog early on, and with 2 dogs you can easily collect heavily defended treasures. So I agree, however it doesn't have to be 50 food, it could be 65 or shorter training time like you said.

As for shipments i fully agree, buff resource and/or military cards. Plus one unit per card is nice.

Spain desperately needs buffs. In current state it's probably weakest civ.

[_DB_]

Just make them nilla.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just make them nilla.

Too op, that would the #1 civ.

[Garja]

Even with nilla changes Spain would probably be in the middle of the pack at best.
Spain bonuses are really nothing special with twc and tad civs having much stronger game mechanics (consulate, wonders, firepit, op units, etc.)

[_DB_]

Just make them nilla.

Too op, that would the #1 civ.

idk if it will, but i feel the rods would be good with +1 attack and spain need the exp bonus like they had on nilla.

We can still ignore the 5 lancer shipment, because its actually too op.

[Atomiswave]

Even with nilla changes Spain would probably be in the middle of the pack at best.
Spain bonuses are really nothing special with twc and tad civs having much stronger game mechanics (consulate, wonders, firepit, op units, etc.)

One more reason to return Spain to nilla status, or buff them even more. Personally I would propose adding +1 unit to almost every military shipment and boosting exp trickle rate a bit. Or even better, reduce shipment arrival time like ovi12 suggested. It would make Spain viable again, and even win them some matches against top tier civs. At the same time it won't change civ identity at all, and meta will stay intact.

[Atomiswave]

Just make them nilla.

Too op, that would the #1 civ.

idk if it will, but i feel the rods would be good with +1 attack and spain need the exp bonus like they had on nilla.

We can still ignore the 5 lancer shipment, because its actually too op.

Do whatever you like with rods, but there are small chances that any good player would build them. They are semi-effective in colonial and almost useless in fortress. The best way to buff them is to increase rod shipments by one or even two units. That way they can present power spike in the right moment.

[_DB_]

Show hidden quotes

Just make them nilla.

Too op, that would the #1 civ.

idk if it will, but i feel the rods would be good with +1 attack and spain need the exp bonus like they had on nilla.

We can still ignore the 5 lancer shipment, because its actually too op.

Do whatever you like with rods, but there are small chances that any good player will build them. They are semi-effective in colonial and almost useless in fortress. The best way to buff them is to increase rod shipments by one or even two units. That way they can present power spike in the right moment.

Hmm, i think it will be nice. 10 rods and 8 rods in age 3, it will quite good, or just 9 and 9 rods.

[Atomiswave]

@_DB_
"Hmm, i think it will be nice. 10 rods and 8 rods in age 3, it will quite good, or just 9 and 9 rods."

I would buff every rod shipment in deck by one. That way rods would become more important as shipment asset which is their only usage. Almost nobody builds them, and no one uses pike/rod upgrade cards so..... only way to make them useful is to increase their shipment quantity. Another way is to mess with their stats/cost, which is in my personal opinion unneeded hustle.

[Jaeger]

I think I would prefer rod +1 attack for the longer game. I think Spain is very effective, not bad.

[Atomiswave]

I think I would prefer rod +1 attack for the longer game. I think Spain is very effective, not bad.

How so? Currently Spain is one of the weakest civs in game. Military cards focus on cav which is fine and rod/pike on which we all agree they are not useful. Also Spain's deck suffers from having none ranged infantry shipment/upgrade. Colonial agenda is weak, while fortress is better because you have better cav options. That's mostly it, unction is worth mentioning because it could be viable option, also explorer's ability to train dogs is nice bonus.

Returning Spain to nilla status with some small adjustments is the only way to preserve civ identity while not changing much, which is at the same time compatible with ep philosophy.

[Jaeger]

I think I would prefer rod +1 attack for the longer game. I think Spain is very effective, not bad.

How so? Currently Spain is one of the weakest civs in game. Military cards focus on cav which is fine and rod/pike on which we all agree they are not useful. Also Spain's deck suffers from having none ranged infantry shipment/upgrade. Colonial agenda is weak, while fortress is average better because you have better cav options. That's mostly it, junction is worth mentioning because it could be viable option, also explorer's ability to train dogs is nice bonus.

Returning Spain to nilla status with some small adjustments is the only way to preserve civ identity while not changing much, which is at the same time compatible with esoc patch philosophy.

Rod pike are very useful for defending cannons, and rods+cav+skirms make a very very good combo (better than the normal skirm goon cav). The lack of ranged infantry shipments is a weakness, but you can ship falconets to deal with musketeers and having so many anticav shipments means that you can devote all your resources to making skirms.

[Atomiswave]

I think I would prefer rod +1 attack for the longer game. I think Spain is very effective, not bad.

How so? Currently Spain is one of the weakest civs in game. Military cards focus on cav which is fine and rod/pike on which we all agree they are not useful. Also Spain's deck suffers from having none ranged infantry shipment/upgrade. Colonial agenda is weak, while fortress is average better because you have better cav options. That's mostly it, junction is worth mentioning because it could be viable option, also explorer's ability to train dogs is nice bonus.

Returning Spain to nilla status with some small adjustments is the only way to preserve civ identity while not changing much, which is at the same time compatible with esoc patch philosophy.

Rod pike are very useful for defending cannons, and rods+cav+skirms make a very very good combo (better than the normal skirm goon cav). The lack of ranged infantry shipments is a weakness, but you can ship falconets to deal with musketeers and having so many anticav shipments means that you can devote all your resources to making skirms.

Your argument stands, but i still think there is not enough space and usability in 1v1 matches for rods, except as shipments. Look at army compositions for almost every good player. In 90 percent of matches we see ranged inf/cav/melee cav and eventally some artillery. Melee inf are situational counter units, which are not used that much partly because you can kite them to death with ranged units.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for buffing rods, but even after well deserved buffs i don't think they will become mainstay in any good army composition. There are just better, cheaper and less intensive micro options.

[Jaeger]

Show hidden quotes

I think I would prefer rod +1 attack for the longer game. I think Spain is very effective, not bad.

How so? Currently Spain is one of the weakest civs in game. Military cards focus on cav which is fine and rod/pike on which we all agree they are not useful. Also Spain's deck suffers from having none ranged infantry shipment/upgrade. Colonial agenda is weak, while fortress is average better because you have better cav options. That's mostly it, junction is worth mentioning because it could be viable option, also explorer's ability to train dogs is nice bonus.

Returning Spain to nilla status with some small adjustments is the only way to preserve civ identity while not changing much, which is at the same time compatible with esoc patch philosophy.

Rod pike are very useful for defending cannons, and rods+cav+skirms make a very very good combo (better than the normal skirm goon cav). The lack of ranged infantry shipments is a weakness, but you can ship falconets to deal with musketeers and having so many anticav shipments means that you can devote all your resources to making skirms.

Your argument stands, but i still think there is not enough space and usability in 1v1 matches for rods, except as shipments. Look at army compositions for almost every good player. In 90 percent of matches we see ranged inf/cav/melee cav and eventally some artillery. Melee inf are situational counter units, which are not used that much partly because you can kite them to death with ranged units.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for buffing rods, but even after well deserved buffs i don't think they will become mainstay in any good army composition. There are just better, cheaper and less intensive micro options.

The only reason you don't see melee inf in their composition is because they don't play spain. Rods are actually really good because of their speed, no other civ has a unit like it. The only other civ that regularly makes hand infantry is china, and changdo are faster than halbs (the other civ's alternative to rods) and they have really really good stats

[zoom]

On top of that the only reason Chinese regularly make Changdao is that the alternative is Iron Flails...

[Atomiswave]

@ovi12
"The only reason you don't see melee inf in their composition is because they don't play spain. Rods are actually really good because of their speed, no other civ has a unit like it. The only other civ that regularly makes hand infantry is china, and changdo are faster than halbs (the other civ's alternative to rods) and they have really really good stats"

You are right, rods have speed as redeeming factor, but it remains to be seen will they become more popular after buffs.

I watched many pro/regular matches with Spain, even mirrors. Rods were sent as shipments and built in very small numbers in colonial and very rare in fortress. BTW, in order for rods to be viable you have to invest something in them like card, veteran upgrade or build them in numbers to be effective in fortress. There are almost zero chances for that to happen, especially in good/pro player scene for which esoc patch is being made.

On the other side, if you have strong colonial agenda in mind rods could be useful. Two buffed shipments 6+7 could be very effective. We could even see stronger rod presence if they buff stats or even better reduce price. Maybe then people will actually build them in strong numbers.

PS: A parallel could be drawn with Germany which has similar problem with doppels, but has much more advantages to compensate.

[momuuu]

Rod skirm lancer is actually a sick combo tbh. Its really strong, maybe the best combo in the game.

[noissance]

Give rods pierce armor instead of hack?, they got big round sheilds.

Either that or buff default armor/cover mode.

[Jaeger]

@ovi12
"The only reason you don't see melee inf in their composition is because they don't play spain. Rods are actually really good because of their speed, no other civ has a unit like it. The only other civ that regularly makes hand infantry is china, and changdo are faster than halbs (the other civ's alternative to rods) and they have really really good stats"

You are right, rods have speed as redeeming factor, but it remains to be seen will they become more popular after buffs.

I watched many pro/regular matches with Spain, even mirrors. Rods were sent as shipments and built in very small numbers in colonial and very rare in fortress. BTW, in order for rods to be viable you have to invest something in them like card, veteran upgrade or build them in numbers to be effective in fortress. There are almost zero chances for that to happen, especially in good/pro player scene for which esoc patch is being made.

On the other side, if you have strong colonial agenda in mind rods could be useful. Two buffed shipments 6+7 could be very effective. We could even see stronger rod presence if they buff stats or even better reduce price. Maybe then people will actually build them in strong numbers.

PS: A parallel could be drawn with Germany which has similar problem with doppels, but has much more advantages to compensate.

I don't know which particular games you saw, but rods are definitely made and upgraded in fortress on a regular basis (not every game, but probably more than 1/2 of games). You were probably watching somebody who doesn't play spain.

[Atomiswave]

@ovi12
"The only reason you don't see melee inf in their composition is because they don't play spain. Rods are actually really good because of their speed, no other civ has a unit like it. The only other civ that regularly makes hand infantry is china, and changdo are faster than halbs (the other civ's alternative to rods) and they have really really good stats"

You are right, rods have speed as redeeming factor, but it remains to be seen will they become more popular after buffs.

I watched many pro/regular matches with Spain, even mirrors. Rods were sent as shipments and built in very small numbers in colonial and very rare in fortress. BTW, in order for rods to be viable you have to invest something in them like card, veteran upgrade or build them in numbers to be effective in fortress. There are almost zero chances for that to happen, especially in good/pro player scene for which esoc patch is being made.

On the other side, if you have strong colonial agenda in mind rods could be useful. Two buffed shipments 6+7 could be very effective. We could even see stronger rod presence if they buff stats or even better reduce price. Maybe then people will actually build them in strong numbers.

PS: A parallel could be drawn with Germany which has similar problem with doppels, but has much more advantages to compensate.

I don't know which particular games you saw, but rods are definitely made and upgraded in fortress on a regular basis (not every game, but probably more than 1/2 of games). You were probably watching somebody who doesn't play spain.

I watched many games, mostly on interjection, veni vidi vici, aoe III and many other yt channels. Almost all players went with ff play style. Rarely i saw colonial play.....