Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

05 Jan 2019, 20:58

nilla spain please at least, theyre kinda shit atm
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 6662
ESO: Garja

05 Jan 2019, 21:02

Current Spain is close to nilla Spain.
With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.
Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

05 Jan 2019, 21:08

nilla spain would mean u could at least have the option for 5vill on non tp which they desperately need, although i do like rod att too
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1636

05 Jan 2019, 21:09

Spain are fine.

How do I know?

Becuase they will win the mono-civ tourny beating the other 13 civs!
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

05 Jan 2019, 21:10

I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.
Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

05 Jan 2019, 21:12

momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

05 Jan 2019, 21:15

Hazza54321 wrote:
momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time

Yea, but then the question is how much damage did you do? If you forced the other player to skip almost all eco stuff and still lose a bunch of stuff, then melee shipments (tbh, Rods and Lancers are pretty solid units) plus skirmishers seems fine, doesn't it.
Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

05 Jan 2019, 21:20

momuuu wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time

Yea, but then the question is how much damage did you do? If you forced the other player to skip almost all eco stuff and still lose a bunch of stuff, then melee shipments (tbh, Rods and Lancers are pretty solid units) plus skirmishers seems fine, doesn't it.

thats the thing, they shouldnt lose much
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

05 Jan 2019, 21:40

So you think Spain is underpowered?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Posts: 7868
Location: France

05 Jan 2019, 22:01

Hazza54321 wrote:theyre kinda shit atm

Are they?
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7868
Location: France

05 Jan 2019, 22:01

Hazza54321 wrote:nilla spain would mean u could at least have the option for 5vill on non tp which they desperately need, although i do like rod att too

From my experience, you couldn't do that.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
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Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 9491
ESO: Pezet
Location: Poland

06 Jan 2019, 07:34

with the Exiled Prince nerf potentially coming, I think they should do alright really
Le lion ne s'associe pas avec le cafard ! :food: :pop:
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Finland somppukunkku
Jaeger
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Posts: 2024

06 Jan 2019, 10:38

In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.
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When I win, it's with homo, illegal and wrong strats.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9060

06 Jan 2019, 10:40

Garja wrote:With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.


no kidding?! whowouldathunk...
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7868
Location: France

06 Jan 2019, 11:05

umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.


no kidding?! whowouldathunk...

Well Spanish gold and cheaper missionaries are both Zoi changes, that's not that surprising.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

06 Jan 2019, 11:38

spanish gold was a good try but doesnt suite or fit the civ at all
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 222

06 Jan 2019, 12:14

somppukunkku wrote:In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.

I think so too. While they are generally quite versatile since they are able to build nearly all standard units (except for halbs), their lack of strong uniques or good royal guard units or at least good upgrade cards makest them weak.

In my opinion, the developers really missed a chance to make Spain a strong and interesting early game civ comparable to Ottomans. While Ottomans got their unique units of Jan/Abus(/Bombards) which stand for the rapid expansion of the Ottoman Empire, Spain got the Tercio pikeman. Unfortunately, the in-game unit does not come close in its impact to the historical spanish Tercio, which dominated european battlefields just as much (or even more?) than the Janissary etc. Especially since Spain was Habsburgian during that timeframe, which means that the real-life Tercios essentially countered the Ottoman advance into Europe by defending Austria/Hungary.

Also, I dislike Unction for some reason. Just don't enjoy using it.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1636

06 Jan 2019, 12:32

I always thought the opposite. Spain always looks pretty rubbish until right at the very top level someone will make them look invincible, especially in tournies with the standard ESOC rules.
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7868
Location: France

06 Jan 2019, 12:46

WickedCossack wrote:I always thought the opposite. Spain always looks pretty rubbish until right at the very top level someone will make them look invincible, especially in tournies with the standard ESOC rules.

Yea, I think so too. You need to be very accurate, send the right shipments, make the right units, hit the right timing etc, to make them great.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9060

06 Jan 2019, 14:57

Yup.
Sweden Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 5139

06 Jan 2019, 15:02

im very bad then
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 6662
ESO: Garja

06 Jan 2019, 15:09

Well there is a limit to what you can do without 400w, fast age up, ranged shipments, 1000g, and guard ranged units.
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Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 9491
ESO: Pezet
Location: Poland

07 Jan 2019, 00:03

duckzilla wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.

I think so too. While they are generally quite versatile since they are able to build nearly all standard units (except for halbs), their lack of strong uniques or good royal guard units or at least good upgrade cards makest them weak.

In my opinion, the developers really missed a chance to make Spain a strong and interesting early game civ comparable to Ottomans. While Ottomans got their unique units of Jan/Abus(/Bombards) which stand for the rapid expansion of the Ottoman Empire, Spain got the Tercio pikeman. Unfortunately, the in-game unit does not come close in its impact to the historical spanish Tercio, which dominated european battlefields just as much (or even more?) than the Janissary etc. Especially since Spain was Habsburgian during that timeframe, which means that the real-life Tercios essentially countered the Ottoman advance into Europe by defending Austria/Hungary.

Also, I dislike Unction for some reason. Just don't enjoy using it.

The developers might have intended to, but were clearly quite oblivious to the fact that hand infantry truly becomes obsolete in a game consisting of land troops with 20 range and 7+-speed ranged cavalry. Oh, well, it's not like you couldn't learn a lesson from 5 years of AoC :hehe:
Le lion ne s'associe pas avec le cafard ! :food: :pop:
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United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1324
ESO: Anonymous_01
Location: United States

07 Jan 2019, 16:20

Here are my ideas for spain:
- revert all EP changes
- revert shipment modifier to vanilla (from current 25% discount to 27% iirc)
- revert lancer and rodelero shipments to vanilla values
- decrease 5 lancer shipment to 4, now infinite
- increase rodelero attack from 10 to 13, multiplier vs. cav from 3.5 to 3, multiplier vs. Li from whatever to 2.25
- increase rodelero siege damage from 10 to 20

Maybe also a change to fortress politicians?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

07 Jan 2019, 18:00

Darwin_ wrote:Here are my ideas for spain:
- revert all EP changes
- revert shipment modifier to vanilla (from current 25% discount to 27% iirc)
- revert lancer and rodelero shipments to vanilla values
- decrease 5 lancer shipment to 4, now infinite
- increase rodelero attack from 10 to 13, multiplier vs. cav from 3.5 to 3, multiplier vs. Li from whatever to 2.25
- increase rodelero siege damage from 10 to 20

Maybe also a change to fortress politicians?

- reverse all EP changes
- implement most EP changes again

Tbh it sounds like a pretty sizable buff to current spain. Spanish gold/missionaries are irrelevant. 5 lancers becomes infinite 4 lancers which is kinda a buff, rods are much better and they get more shipments.

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