ESOCommunity

nilla spain please at least, theyre kinda shit atm

Current Spain is close to nilla Spain.
With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.

nilla spain would mean u could at least have the option for 5vill on non tp which they desperately need, although i do like rod att too

Spain are fine.

How do I know?

Becuase they will win the mono-civ tourny beating the other 13 civs!

I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time

Hazza54321 wrote:

momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time

Yea, but then the question is how much damage did you do? If you forced the other player to skip almost all eco stuff and still lose a bunch of stuff, then melee shipments (tbh, Rods and Lancers are pretty solid units) plus skirmishers seems fine, doesn't it.

momuuu wrote:

Hazza54321 wrote:

momuuu wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing that Spain needs to abuse its tempo advantage a little bit. From time to time Spain can feel a little extreme though, although one could argue that it's not that problematic that there is a very extreme civ in the game.

i agree it needs to abuse tempo advantage, but you can only get so much done with falcs and then its just melee shipments and training 5 skirm at a time

Yea, but then the question is how much damage did you do? If you forced the other player to skip almost all eco stuff and still lose a bunch of stuff, then melee shipments (tbh, Rods and Lancers are pretty solid units) plus skirmishers seems fine, doesn't it.

thats the thing, they shouldnt lose much

So you think Spain is underpowered?

Hazza54321 wrote:theyre kinda shit atm

Are they?

Hazza54321 wrote:nilla spain would mean u could at least have the option for 5vill on non tp which they desperately need, although i do like rod att too

From my experience, you couldn't do that.

with the Exiled Prince nerf potentially coming, I think they should do alright really

In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.

Garja wrote:With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.

no kidding?! whowouldathunk...

umeu wrote:

Garja wrote:With that said, shipment multiplier and rods attack would have been better changes than spanish gold and cheaper missionaries.

no kidding?! whowouldathunk...

Well Spanish gold and cheaper missionaries are both Zoi changes, that's not that surprising.

spanish gold was a good try but doesnt suite or fit the civ at all

somppukunkku wrote:In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.

I think so too. While they are generally quite versatile since they are able to build nearly all standard units (except for halbs), their lack of strong uniques or good royal guard units or at least good upgrade cards makest them weak.

In my opinion, the developers really missed a chance to make Spain a strong and interesting early game civ comparable to Ottomans. While Ottomans got their unique units of Jan/Abus(/Bombards) which stand for the rapid expansion of the Ottoman Empire, Spain got the Tercio pikeman. Unfortunately, the in-game unit does not come close in its impact to the historical spanish Tercio, which dominated european battlefields just as much (or even more?) than the Janissary etc. Especially since Spain was Habsburgian during that timeframe, which means that the real-life Tercios essentially countered the Ottoman advance into Europe by defending Austria/Hungary.

Also, I dislike Unction for some reason. Just don't enjoy using it.

I always thought the opposite. Spain always looks pretty rubbish until right at the very top level someone will make them look invincible, especially in tournies with the standard ESOC rules.

WickedCossack wrote:I always thought the opposite. Spain always looks pretty rubbish until right at the very top level someone will make them look invincible, especially in tournies with the standard ESOC rules.

Yea, I think so too. You need to be very accurate, send the right shipments, make the right units, hit the right timing etc, to make them great.

Yup.

im very bad then

Well there is a limit to what you can do without 400w, fast age up, ranged shipments, 1000g, and guard ranged units.

duckzilla wrote:

somppukunkku wrote:In my opinion, Spain is a little like Russia. Builds are easy to execute but you don't really have much objective potential (bad eco, not too op units). Therefore, winning relies on opponent mistakes like suiciding half of his shit vs falcs/doing bad counter build. I think higher level we go, worse Spain is.

I think so too. While they are generally quite versatile since they are able to build nearly all standard units (except for halbs), their lack of strong uniques or good royal guard units or at least good upgrade cards makest them weak.

In my opinion, the developers really missed a chance to make Spain a strong and interesting early game civ comparable to Ottomans. While Ottomans got their unique units of Jan/Abus(/Bombards) which stand for the rapid expansion of the Ottoman Empire, Spain got the Tercio pikeman. Unfortunately, the in-game unit does not come close in its impact to the historical spanish Tercio, which dominated european battlefields just as much (or even more?) than the Janissary etc. Especially since Spain was Habsburgian during that timeframe, which means that the real-life Tercios essentially countered the Ottoman advance into Europe by defending Austria/Hungary.

Also, I dislike Unction for some reason. Just don't enjoy using it.

The developers might have intended to, but were clearly quite oblivious to the fact that hand infantry truly becomes obsolete in a game consisting of land troops with 20 range and 7+-speed ranged cavalry. Oh, well, it's not like you couldn't learn a lesson from 5 years of AoC

Here are my ideas for spain:
- revert all EP changes
- revert shipment modifier to vanilla (from current 25% discount to 27% iirc)
- revert lancer and rodelero shipments to vanilla values
- decrease 5 lancer shipment to 4, now infinite
- increase rodelero attack from 10 to 13, multiplier vs. cav from 3.5 to 3, multiplier vs. Li from whatever to 2.25
- increase rodelero siege damage from 10 to 20

Maybe also a change to fortress politicians?

Darwin_ wrote:Here are my ideas for spain:
- revert all EP changes
- revert shipment modifier to vanilla (from current 25% discount to 27% iirc)
- revert lancer and rodelero shipments to vanilla values
- decrease 5 lancer shipment to 4, now infinite
- increase rodelero attack from 10 to 13, multiplier vs. cav from 3.5 to 3, multiplier vs. Li from whatever to 2.25
- increase rodelero siege damage from 10 to 20

Maybe also a change to fortress politicians?

- reverse all EP changes
- implement most EP changes again

Tbh it sounds like a pretty sizable buff to current spain. Spanish gold/missionaries are irrelevant. 5 lancers becomes infinite 4 lancers which is kinda a buff, rods are much better and they get more shipments.