Spanish Discussion Thread

[dansil92]

I had a few ideas here and there for spain as i play it fairly frequently online, one of my favourite civs to play casually.

-rodeleros get a bonus vs vills: the spainish were ruthless pillagers and giving their unique unit some raiding potential fits right into the civ design and has a historically accurate flair

-lancers get a small range: that long pokey stick was longer than a pike, give the bois some reach like a meteor hammer!

-give them a card of some kind which increases the range of their ranged infantry by 2. This is a shadow buff where they dont upgrade the stats but would give their units a slight edge, allowing them to be a bit more competitive in skirm wars or giving their xbows more viability in colonial.

[Kawapasaka]

-rodeleros get a bonus vs vills: the spainish were ruthless pillagers and giving their unique unit some raiding potential fits right into the civ design and has a historically accurate flair

This is dumb. Rods already counter cav so you need to send much much slower infantry to cost effectively counter them raiding. Even Opris can be caught and cleaned up by a lesser cost amount of cav. This just makes Rods too good, everyone would have to wall the whole map to stop Rod raids. Imo raiding should always come with the risk of getting your raiders cleaned up by counter units, making Rods actually good at killing vills kind of breaks this since they can't really be punished.

As for the RI idea I don't think it's good practice to buff the un-unique parts of a civ when there are just fine alternatives.

[Peachrocks]

As for the RI idea I don't think it's good practice to buff the un-unique parts of a civ when there are just fine alternatives.

Yeah but as I said in that massive post at the bottom of the last page, Spain is the only civ in the game that completely lacks ranged upgrade cards outside of advanced arsenal which every European gets. Well outside of Unction which comes with it's own pitfalls. Natives get their own variants and war dance and Asians get a ton of bonuses too.

It leaves them with nothing once the game goes beyond a few units and why everything with the civ feels like an 'all in'. Because it really is. You have to win or gain a huge advantage before melee becomes too unwieldy and before the Spanish shipment bonus falls off. Whether people are okay with that is another matter. I personally am not, but I'm acutely aware my tastes don't line up with the majority.

[duckzilla]

-lancers get a small range: that long pokey stick was longer than a pike, give the bois some reach like a meteor hammer.

Love it. Would turn lancers directly into an insanely good unit.

[gamevideo113]

Frankly i am quite surprised that unction hasn't made it into the meta play yet. The card is really good and gives spain a more than reasonable option to keep being relevant in the late stages of the game. I'm guessing it's kinda hard to find a spot for it in the deck in the colonial age, but in my opinion it's still underestimated.
In colonial fully unctioned musks have 30 attack iirc, it's pretty good i think. The card is definitely underestimated imo, but at the same time it probably needs to be encouraged a bit more to see how it actually does in normal games.
-Unction provides a church wagon on top of the missionary aura;
or
-Unction moved to the discovery age.
The former would just be a small perk.
The latter would contribute in making spanish decks a bit less clumped in age2.

As for rods, i'm not against buffing them, but bringing them back to nilla would be a questionable buff. -5hp, +1atk, -0,5x vs cavalry. I mean, the unit is still pretty much identical, just a bit less hp but more dps. If anything, i'd change this:
-Hand Infantry Combat, effect increased from 15% to 20%
Buffing fortress pikes in the process too.

[Mitoe]

Frankly i am quite surprised that unction hasn't made it into the meta play yet. The card is really good and gives spain a more than reasonable option to keep being relevant in the late stages of the game. I'm guessing it's kinda hard to find a spot for it in the deck in the colonial age, but in my opinion it's still underestimated.
In colonial fully unctioned musks have 30 attack iirc, it's pretty good i think. The card is definitely underestimated imo, but at the same time it probably needs to be encouraged a bit more to see how it actually does in normal games.
-Unction provides a church wagon on top of the missionary aura;
or
-Unction moved to the discovery age.
The former would just be a small perk.
The latter would contribute in making spanish decks a bit less clumped in age2.

As for rods, i'm not against buffing them, but bringing them back to nilla would be a questionable buff. -5hp, +1atk, -0,5x vs cavalry. I mean, the unit is still pretty much identical, just a bit less hp but more dps. If anything, i'd change this:
-Hand Infantry Combat, effect increased from 15% to 20%
Buffing fortress pikes in the process too.

Nah it’s got nothing to do with the deck really. The card is just too expensive to send in most games. Like Advanced Arsenal.

It’s not a bad card but usually your tempo will be more important, and then the game gets decided before you can afford to invest into a card like Unction.

[Aizamk]

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

[gamevideo113]

Frankly i am quite surprised that unction hasn't made it into the meta play yet. The card is really good and gives spain a more than reasonable option to keep being relevant in the late stages of the game. I'm guessing it's kinda hard to find a spot for it in the deck in the colonial age, but in my opinion it's still underestimated.
In colonial fully unctioned musks have 30 attack iirc, it's pretty good i think. The card is definitely underestimated imo, but at the same time it probably needs to be encouraged a bit more to see how it actually does in normal games.
-Unction provides a church wagon on top of the missionary aura;
or
-Unction moved to the discovery age.
The former would just be a small perk.
The latter would contribute in making spanish decks a bit less clumped in age2.

As for rods, i'm not against buffing them, but bringing them back to nilla would be a questionable buff. -5hp, +1atk, -0,5x vs cavalry. I mean, the unit is still pretty much identical, just a bit less hp but more dps. If anything, i'd change this:
-Hand Infantry Combat, effect increased from 15% to 20%
Buffing fortress pikes in the process too.

Nah it’s got nothing to do with the deck really. The card is just too expensive to send in most games. Like Advanced Arsenal.

It’s not a bad card but usually your tempo will be more important, and then the game gets decided before you can afford to invest into a card like Unction.

That is true, it needs an investment. Still though it think it is much better than advanced arsenal. It’s 1 colonial shipment and 600w 500g and potentially gives +40%(?) attack to all units, plus the healing ability of missionaries in between fights that is nice to have. All of these are relatively small/not convenient benefits and you would probably not go out of your way to get them separately, but all together they make for a worthwhile bonus imo. Advanced arsenal instead is like 1 colonial shipment + 250w + 700w + 750g just to get the infantry upgrades. It’s a lot more expensive. This is the reason why i thought that maybe unction could have a place in some games.

[Mitoe]

700w, cause of the population space.

It’s definitely a good deal just a bit difficult to afford even that investment.

[Peachrocks]

Unction is one of those things that looks good on paper but isn't in practice. The fact the missionaries cost population and do not contribute to combat outside the aura and healing afterwards. It's also not an instant benefit either like combat cards are. You need to train the missionaries, gather them with the army, have enough of an army for it to be worthwhile and then maybe it'll work and then on top of that, the missionaries must remain in range, which isn't always practical. Everyone else gets their bonuses unconditionally and instantly.

Sure Advanced arsenal isn't instant either but advanced arsenal isn't a good card in general compared to some of its potential competition but it generally gets used alongside combat cards however it'll almost certainly not get sent before them. Simply put, it's not in direct competition with combat cards unlike Unction is with Spain's lack of ranged combat cards, which really sums up Spain's problem. A lot of it's unique shipments aren't good and so it relies mostly on military shipments and generic stuff all Europeans get.

Meanwhile every other civ is getting their bonus right away. Considering how 'all in' Spain is, it's not surprising Unction doesn't see that much play.

[ClaiomhSolais]

Otherwise they are basically playing the game with no bonuses.

If the xp bonus increased over time it would still be relevant in the late game. Maybe that could be a good change.

[zoom]

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

How come you prefer this to a Church Wagon?

[Hazza54321]

Aa should come with aresnal wagon

[Mitoe]

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

How come you prefer this to a Church Wagon?

I hope you’re not considering buffing Unction again because of this discussion, haha. Any buff might make it too strong.

[zoom]

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

How come you prefer this to a Church Wagon?

I hope you’re not considering buffing Unction again because of this discussion, haha. Any buff might make it too strong.

I was only considering testing reverting the effect nerf from 5% to 4%. Reverting changes is always ideal, unless they are meaningful. Still, I'm sure you agree, it were ideal, if the shipment is viable. After all, that was the intent with which the changes to it were made, to begin with. They aren't meaningful unless they make Unction viable.

[zoom]

Aa should come with aresnal wagon

Either that, or reducing the cost of the Arsenal, which might be more in the spirit of the shipment.

[Peachrocks]

Otherwise they are basically playing the game with no bonuses.

If the xp bonus increased over time it would still be relevant in the late game. Maybe that could be a good change.

Could do. Perhaps some of their unique shipments could be aided/changed further, though perhaps the passiveness of Spanish gold might be enough if they continue to receive shipments.

Show hidden quotes

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

How come you prefer this to a Church Wagon?

I hope you’re not considering buffing Unction again because of this discussion, haha. Any buff might make it too strong.

I was only considering testing reverting the effect nerf from 5% to 4%. Reverting changes is always ideal, unless they are meaningful. Still, I'm sure you agree, it were ideal, if the shipment is viable. After all, that was the intent with which the changes to it were made, to begin with. They aren't meaningful unless they make Unction viable.

I think Mitoe is right. Helping them in another way is probably better. Ultimately Unction ironically might fall under the same heading as Rodeleros did for years. Really specialized and niche and therefore either end up mediocre or obnoxious. I'd rather a more conventional boost to Spain's range game. It's silly and they suffer for being the only civ that completely lacks a range combat card.

[Mitoe]

I don’t think AA needs any buffs either. It’s a solid situational card and I don’t want to see it become a must-have in all Euro decks.

[Goodspeed]

Fuck the card. The arsenal in general needs a bunch of buffs. It should be a relevant building part of every build order, not situational. Mostly it needs more upgrades, ones that you actually want.

[Peachrocks]

Well those are two contradictory points of view . I kinda see both though. Having said that though, because the Asians and Aztecs don't get it (or new ways) it could be dangerous and upset things.

[Goodspeed]

Asians can get it through consulate, maybe not all of them though. Japan has its own arsenal in the golden pavilion. Native civs are an issue, maybe upgrades can be added to the WH / native stable

[zoom]

Otherwise they are basically playing the game with no bonuses.

If the xp bonus increased over time it would still be relevant in the late game. Maybe that could be a good change.

Could do. Perhaps some of their unique shipments could be aided/changed further, though perhaps the passiveness of Spanish gold might be enough if they continue to receive shipments.

Show hidden quotes

Unction should also grant 2 missionaries.

How come you prefer this to a Church Wagon?

I hope you’re not considering buffing Unction again because of this discussion, haha. Any buff might make it too strong.

I was only considering testing reverting the effect nerf from 5% to 4%. Reverting changes is always ideal, unless they are meaningful. Still, I'm sure you agree, it were ideal, if the shipment is viable. After all, that was the intent with which the changes to it were made, to begin with. They aren't meaningful unless they make Unction viable.

I think Mitoe is right. Helping them in another way is probably better. Ultimately Unction ironically might fall under the same heading as Rodeleros did for years. Really specialized and niche and therefore either end up mediocre or obnoxious. I'd rather a more conventional boost to Spain's range game. It's silly and they suffer for being the only civ that completely lacks a range combat card.

That's kind of the point of the civilization. We wouldn't want to eliminate its unique features, would we, now? I'm happy to buff Spanish otherwise, but Unction should either be tweaked until it's sufficiently viable, or the changes should be reverted. The former makes more sense, to me, than the latter.

[zoom]

Fuck the card. The arsenal in general needs a bunch of buffs. It should be a relevant building part of every build order, not situational. Mostly it needs more upgrades, ones that you actually want.

I'm working on it.

[zoom]

Asians can get it through consulate, maybe not all of them though. Japan has its own arsenal in the golden pavilion. Native civs are an issue, maybe upgrades can be added to the WH / native stable

For instance, you could add the ones TWC civilizations cannot unlock with a shipment, in Industrial.

[zoom]

I don’t think AA needs any buffs either. It’s a solid situational card and I don’t want to see it become a must-have in all Euro decks.

Agreed. Balancing the Arsenal itself is definitively more important than buffing the shipment.