Spanish Discussion Thread

[Kaiserklein]

Spain is not bad, it honestly just used to be you and hazza spamming twitch chats about it. And since no one plays it everyone is like "spain is trash", no matter how much you buff it lol. Because it's cool for people to repeat what top players say so that they can pretend they understand the game.

Typical example is spain vs ger which I never felt was that good for germany on the last EPs. But it's easy to convince people that it's an unwinnable MU. Yet with the last changes, whenever I play it as spain it just feels like an easy win.

[Mitoe]

Spain will be a top civ with the 70% xp, for sure.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Current Spain is fine (it's nilla spain if I'm not mistaken). Even that lancer change was unnecessary :)

[chronique]

Well, I am 100% sure, if fr goes ff.
What's "mass goon" at 9 mins lol? 10-15 goons? You defend that easily with your 15 skirms and some rods. Btw you seem to think rods are useless vs goons, but they're not, they prevent them from going in to kill skirms, and can be put in cover mode to tank too. You just can't take a good trade with, say, 15 goons vs 15 skirms + few rods.

10 goon at 8 min if you age in 7.15, its 15 goon and 8 skirm to me at 9.10 (and you are better than me)


And iam agree with kaiser and diarouga, as i said before, i am not sure spain need to be buff (and if caba stay with +2 range i will be happy , i am gona stop arguing againt my civ, its not my job and my level is not good enough to talk about balance).

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah with the perfect 7:15 age up 4 cdb / 700w ff, you get 15 goons at 9 mins. I wasn't talking about the skirms, but yeah you can get 8 or maybe even a bit more.
Meanwhile at that time spain should have 15 skirms, 10 rods, 4 huss. Can train dogs, the tower shoots at goons, and you can pop 5 lancers or 9 rods anytime on his army so he can't push at your fb (also potential 5 skirms pop from the rax). In my book that's enough to hold.
And that's if you went spanish gold / 1000w really, but if you cut 1000w when you see he's being aggressive, you have a unit shipment in and there's absolutely no way france can stay near your fb.

[Rohbrot]

Spain is not bad, it honestly just used to be you and hazza spamming twitch chats about it. And since no one plays it everyone is like "spain is trash", no matter how much you buff it lol. Because it's cool for people to repeat what top players say so that they can pretend they understand the game.

Typical example is spain vs ger which I never felt was that good for germany on the last EPs. But it's easy to convince people that it's an unwinnable MU. Yet with the last changes, whenever I play it as spain it just feels like an easy win.

Spain vs germany is really Spain favoured, i can say this also from my games.Spain isnt trash but its hard to play tbh, i guess thats why its not much used by top players and i like it when i see when u play it but idk it just feels like its easy to use when i watch ur gameplay but when i play it vs higher prs its just like when i had a bad fight (first fight mostly) i wont be able to have a good eco + same mass of units like vs france or other goon civs. For me its just hard to win when my opponent has a good amount of goons + cuirs+skirms if i had a good first fight and kill maybe some vills he can still kite with skirms and goons till i have lost most of mine rods.....if spain doesnt need a buff like the xp buff which we will see in EP8 why no1 uses them like japan or other civs ? i will talk more about the buff when EP8 is out, atm spain is fine for me i wanted just some litte changes which i had in mine mind it isnt so that what i say wont be changed anyways^^

[zoom]

I'd love "INFINITE 8 Rodeleros". Unfortunately, one of many things I learned during the development of EP7 is that currently good AoE3 players live in a state of terror towards infinite shipments, which is interesting, considering the many cases of them being viable without being overpowered.

You really have to stop acting like players are stupid and just limiting you in your effort to balance the patch... You really wanna get even more hated or what's your point here? I mean you know less than the average top player, yet keep making fun of them all. It's kind of toxic and ridiculous.
Giving a strong (yes, 8 rods really isn't bad) infinite unit shipment to a civ that gets more shipments than others, and relies more on unit shipments than others, is obviously stupid. Pretty much as stupid as 8 infinite maces was. Plus it adresses a non issue, why the fuck would spain need that shipment to begin with..? And did you even consider the case of an infinite 8 rods + 400g shipment...

Hatred is such a toxic thing—I agree! I think that you're taking my comment much too seriously. I'm sorry that it offended you; it was made light-heartedly. My point is that it became apparent that players, at the time, were especially worried about infinite shipments, in general, which is why I'm hesitant to consider such a change.

I don't think that I know more about build-orders or which civilization is stronger than another, than the average good player. It's obviously the case that I'm relatively good at predicting and understanding the implications of changes, though. The closed EP7 beta-forum contrasted with the post-release reception of the update is one monument to my ability, in this particular capacity.

[Rohbrot]

just looked into ur elo u lost the same MU vs Stanley_Winston,was it streamed or do you have a Video of it? If not can you tell me what u did wrong or if u just micro´ed bad?

I lost my net because of my parents' shitty wifi, lol. I was winning when I dropped.
Anyway it would be irrelevant to this discussion since it was on cascade range, which is obviously not a map where you can go for a greedy spanish gold ff. In that game he tried to double rax bow pike rush me, while I opened nootka and then adapted into bow / huss.

How do you can train bow/huss with spain at the same time when the game ended at min8?thats insane.

[zoom]

Spain will be a top civ with the 70% xp, for sure.

Balance must be great, if that's the case! Due to my shameless caving in to popular demand, I will be undoing the revert of the Rodelero attack buff, though, which means I'll also be tweaking the shipment bonus buff from 5pp to 3pp.

[Mitoe]

That's probably best. 5% was colossal

[zoom]

That's probably best. 5% was colossal

5pp is 1/5 of the current extent of the bonus. In my estimate, 2pp is comparable to +1 Rodelero attack.

[Kaiserklein]

How do you can train bow/huss with spain at the same time when the game ended at min8?thats insane.

I had time to make only 4 huss and 5 bows, was training more when I dropped. Anyway with crates it's very doable, though opening nootka made it harder.

[Mitoe]

That's probably best. 5% was colossal

5pp is 1/5 of the current extent of the bonus. In my estimate, 2pp is comparable to +1 Rodelero attack.

Ok what does pp even stand for

Percentage points?

[zoom]

That's probably best. 5% was colossal

5pp is 1/5 of the current extent of the bonus. In my estimate, 2pp is comparable to +1 Rodelero attack.

Ok what does pp even stand for

Percentage points?

Correct—my bad!

[duckzilla]

Alright, the discussion is not really on buffing Spain anymore. However, I want to suggest a buff to Tercios, as this unit is pretty much never used:

• Pikemen get +1 range with their guard upgrade to Tercio

Historical context: Spanish Tercios dominated the battlefield of the 16th century, being the first military units to efficiently mix pikes and firearms (-> range).

[Rohbrot]

after lancers get 1+range its really not that easy to use all your lancers like when you have 20 they walk sometimes arround all units....sad that the 2+range got reverted.

[chronique]

after lancers get 1+range its really not that easy to use all your lancers like when you have 20 they walk sometimes arround all units....sad that the 2+range got reverted.

Well its suppose to improve lancer/rodo compo, not lancer / lancer comp

[gamevideo113]

+2 range was broken xD

[Jets]

Give Spain a decent Age 2, since rn the civ it's just a FF or die. Not every civ should be like France, or a similar archetype.
I've thought about buffing they eco just a little bit, taking a different card choices based on trickles. Yes, that's right, trickles.

Taking the Capitalism card after you send 3 vills, and then another gold trickle (since Spain was one of the richest kingdoms to profit on America), maybe reworking the Spanish Gold card into a buffed gold trickle, similar to India's Foreign Logging and Distributivism cards sinergy. It would be a diferent path to choose, rather than FF or semi FF, a solid/decent strategy to fill the gaps in Spain eco on Age 2.

Maybe a 2.35 trickle of Coin, or less.

On the other hand, make Tercios a Pyke to Musk convert card, that would be a more flavourish build in fortress, that may surprise even a high experienced player.

[Kawapasaka]

Give Spain a decent Age 2, since rn the civ it's just a FF or die. Not every civ should be like France, or a similar archetype.

Giving Spain a better Age 2 would make them more like France though
In any case the lack of fast age is what really prohibits more semi-FF builds from being used. Give them that and it's France 2.0.

[dansil92]

There's nothing *explicitly* wrong with Spain's colonial. They have musks, huss, 5v, 4v, fast shipments, all the crates, bow/pike, rodeleros. Unction is a possibility. They can double card their huss, double card their rods/pikes. Double carding their dogs is possible. Their schooners builds are solid. But if you play colo spain you're basically locked into it, you're not gonna get to fortress without some serious miracle

[chronique]

Spain is better in age 2 that peaple think they are. Maybe just give a litle xbow buff can be gud (spain is an archaic civ in age 2 so sound ok).

[Black_Duck]

Spain age 2 is underrated

[iNcog]

I think Spain's Age 2 is fine, but it's Age 3 is better and they don't have a fast age politician.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Spain's age 2 is almost as good as France's age 2, but the big issue is that you cannot age 3 if you go age 2, and in the current meta, you can't really stay in age 2 with just musk/huss.