Spanish Discussion Thread

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France chronique
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

Yea the fast age up is so versatil. Its annoying to be locked in age 2, try to age 3 and your opponenet push at this timing.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

Aside from the fast age up, I feel the biggest problem is that Spain's age2 isn't that it is bad per se, it's just that it is worse than basically every other civ that wants to or usually does play age2.

In age2, Spain is basically only good at one thing: that is having a really strong rush/timing with lots of HI/shipments/dogs. But imo that is more of a surprise/cheese build. Aside from that, Spain has one major disadvantage compared to all other civs that usually do or want to play prolonged age2: eco and army scaling. Civs that want to/can play age2 consistently are especially:

- Brits
- Russia
- India
- Japan
- Aztec
(- France)
(- iro)

What do all of these civs have in common? Great military and/or eco scaling: manor boom/faster training vills (Russia, also France to a degree)/other boom options (Japan, India) / high quality units (India, Jap, iro). Having upraded rods or huss late age2 is decent, but nothing compared to what the other age2 civs get. The only civ whose late age2 isn't *that* amazing either (France), at least has a few advantages: slightly better eco scaling with cdbs, 8 xbow shipment (>>pike or rod shipments unless you wanna rush), age2 xbow cards (probably better for age2 play than upped rods) and ofc the fast age up.

All in all, Spain's age3 with their 2 falc/shipment spam/strong lancer+rod+skirm, is basically (at least) top 1/3 of all civs, their age2 is basically (or almost) bottom half of all civs playing age2.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I think its bad due to no 400w age up so lower early mass, no ranged infantry shipment so you lose the infantry war, no eco besides 5v (can also 4v but means you’re probably never hitting fortress) and no relevant unit upgrades.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

But unction is something in a late colonial. 35 atta mousket and 45 atta cav is pretty amazing. Its just hard too reach that point. To me missing 400w age up is not so big but the fast age is so strong and so safe. I realy think xbow combat is not a wrong way too improve a little age 2 sapain (in term of design).
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

Any civ wins Spain's age 2, really only a cheese or an unexpected rush can win a game for spain in colonial. If fortress gets boring I try mostly age4 gameplay (revo or tech advantage).
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Black_Duck »

He's back!
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Yea no 400w really sucks for spain going into colonial.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Nats with ATP i feel are viable atm for spain in age 2 though.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

Riotcoke wrote:Nats with ATP i feel are viable atm for spain in age 2 though.
Did ATP or Nats change with a new patch or is it still the same patch? Asking cuz u wrote "atm".
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

Hope to see you playing spain Atp/Nat gameplay :D
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Rohbrot wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Nats with ATP i feel are viable atm for spain in age 2 though.
Did ATP or Nats change with a new patch or is it still the same patch? Asking cuz u wrote "atm".
The XP trickle is getting removed from native posts, natives are also getting changed a decent amount, so it might be better, or might be worse i don't actually know.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

Sounds cool, thank you for writting.wondering how the game will look when I will able to play again.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Black_Duck »

When can we expect you back?!
Challenged_Macro wrote: Respect Mussolini guys,if hes triggered there is always a reason.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

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Post by Rohbrot »

Some months I guess. Number 1 Revolter has tough life atm.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Black_Duck »

Ah that sucks to hear, looking forward to seeing you back though
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

Thank you for ur kind words
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

@Rohbrot nice too meet you again ahah
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

@chronique , same my friend, hope ur fine.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by SquidTheSid »

So, weird idea (and a bit of a deviation from RE), but what if we gave Spain Royal Guard/Imperial crossbowmen (alongside adjust hand infantry combat to affect archers)? It would give them a unique powerful lategame skirmisher unit, and fit their unique theme of archaic units. Currently, I've got the RG upgrade (Ballesteros) to give +2 LOS/Range, and the Imperial upgrade to increase the Heavy Infantry multiplier to 2.0x.

Fully upgraded, they'd have 250 HP, 40 damage (66 with Unction), 18 range, and 2.0x heavy infantry.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Wait that's exactly what I proposed for Ports and their Besteiros. I really like the idea, but I think it fits better to Portuguese due to the already existing feature.

I see some beauty in the combination of Spanish Imp. Pikes and Portuguese Imp. Xbows. Since both countries have been ruled by in personal union for a century (led by the Spanish), it feels right to give them a sort team game synergy. That could be the theme of archaic units you mention.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by SquidTheSid »

duckzilla wrote:Wait that's exactly what I proposed for Ports and their Besteiros. I really like the idea, but I think it fits better to Portuguese due to the already existing feature.

I see some beauty in the combination of Spanish Imp. Pikes and Portuguese Imp. Xbows. Since both countries have been ruled by in personal union for a century (led by the Spanish), it feels right to give them a sort team game synergy. That could be the theme of archaic units you mention.
Well, Besteiros is kinda redundant for Ports, since Cassadores exist and are fairly strong units (and get a lot of upgrades). Should Dutch not get Royal Guard carded Halbs because Spain can send in Guard level Halbs through the church? As it is, Spanish skirms don't get royal guard status or any cards affecting them. So their skirmishers struggle. And given that Spain has Tercios and Archaic Infantry train time, an Imperial or Industrial combo of them would make sense and help make Spain more unique as the archaic infantry civ.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

SquidTheSid wrote:Well, Besteiros is kinda redundant for Ports, since Cassadores exist and are fairly strong units (and get a lot of upgrades).
I don't get your point, since the same is true for Spanish who a) already have skirmishers and b) additionally get lancers who serve a comparable purpose.
SquidTheSid wrote: Should Dutch not get Royal Guard carded Halbs because Spain can send in Guard level Halbs through the church?
The comparison is not fruitful, since halbs can generally be upgraded to imp units in contrast to xbows. Portuguese are the exception, because they can upgrade their xbows already to guard status. To me it makes sense to simply extrapolate this.
SquidTheSid wrote:As it is, Spanish skirms don't get royal guard status or any cards affecting them. So their skirmishers struggle. And given that Spain has Tercios and Archaic Infantry train time, an Imperial or Industrial combo of them would make sense and help make Spain more unique as the archaic infantry civ.
Spanish skirms struggling is new to me. What do they struggle against? Other skirmishers?

I see your point on Archaic Infantry and having a late-game combo affected by it. Given that Archaic Infantry is a team card, I still prefer a version where it actually makes the team stronger and not just Spain.
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

Spain is fine (until tp nerf)
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by SquidTheSid »

duckzilla wrote:
SquidTheSid wrote:Well, Besteiros is kinda redundant for Ports, since Cassadores exist and are fairly strong units (and get a lot of upgrades).
I don't get your point, since the same is true for Spanish who a) already have skirmishers and b) additionally get lancers who serve a comparable purpose.
SquidTheSid wrote: Should Dutch not get Royal Guard carded Halbs because Spain can send in Guard level Halbs through the church?
The comparison is not fruitful, since halbs can generally be upgraded to imp units in contrast to xbows. Portuguese are the exception, because they can upgrade their xbows already to guard status. To me it makes sense to simply extrapolate this.
SquidTheSid wrote:As it is, Spanish skirms don't get royal guard status or any cards affecting them. So their skirmishers struggle. And given that Spain has Tercios and Archaic Infantry train time, an Imperial or Industrial combo of them would make sense and help make Spain more unique as the archaic infantry civ.
Spanish skirms struggling is new to me. What do they struggle against? Other skirmishers?

I see your point on Archaic Infantry and having a late-game combo affected by it. Given that Archaic Infantry is a team card, I still prefer a version where it actually makes the team stronger and not just Spain.
I'd say Lancers are fundamentally different units, with overlap. Lancers can counter artillery, while skirms get destroyed by them. Skirms counter light cav, whereas goons delete lancers (except for Keshiks, lol).

But regarding Cassadores, Ports already gets skirms that have plenty of unit upgrades and royal guard status, so they scale well. Spain doesn't have any shipments or techs to improve skirms beyond base status, excluding unction. Even if we ignore the changes to hand infantry combat, Imperial Xbows for Spain isn't redundant since they would serve a purpose (cheap spammable anti-infantry), whereas Besteiros aren't particularly useful for Portugal due to them having Cassadores (and Besteiros being locked behind a card and costing over 2k wood to ship).
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Re: Spanish Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Spainsh skirms with unction are actually insane, so why would spain need more buffs to their unit stats?
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