Japanese Discussion Thread

[Garja]

It totally would with an extra base crate instead of the extra 100w one.
Side note, in case someone didnt notice China is pretty good civ atm.

[deleted_user0]

What's wrong with Japan being good?

Somehow I feel that many people are "resisting" weak civs to become equal to top civs atm. Allowing small buffs but not to the extent that they would be constantly used at top elvel.

[Garja]

Man Japan can already easily be a top civ. It's just a more omplex civ that you need to master but it has everything already.
Any early game boost would essentially the only weakness that prevent them to be the best civ hands down.

[deleted_user0]

Man Japan can already easily be a top civ. It's just a more omplex civ that you need to master but it has everything already.
Any early game boost would essentially the only weakness that prevent them to be the best civ hands down.

Possible. Maybe not.

However, if we do not try things out we will never know. Can always revert nerfs. I think beating most of nilla civs, atleast on stage maps, is extremely hard.

Nerf list (if I may include wall nerf) for japan has been super long and 5w cheaper shrine doesn't compensate it.

[deleted_user0]

The thing is, I'd rather have Japan as a standard tournament civ than Otto. Considering that Japan is a skill civ and Otto can be played well by any bot.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Buffing Japan is dangerous because the civ can quickly get out of control. It still has one of the best boom/late game in the game, thus if we make it faster it will be impossible to abuse their weaknesses.
The civ is not too good right now though, only decent on no TP maps or on some water maps, and I agree that playing Japan should be more rewarding than playing Otto.

I really don't know how we can buff them to be honest. The Japanese late game is already insanely good, and we can't buff the early game. Maybe some small things like buffing yabusame would help.

[gamevideo113]

Japan imo has lots of unexplored possibilities as well. And since it is used quite rarely i think it's hard to evaluate its actual strength. Not to mention Mitoe's japan was the only civ that was able to beat diarouga's chinese strategy on New England.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Japan imo has lots of unexplored possibilities as well. And since it is used quite rarely i think it's hard to evaluate its actual strength. Not to mention Mitoe's japan was the only civ that was able to beat diarouga's chinese strategy on New England.

Obviously missed the Spanish Revolt game from Diarouga Vs Tabben in the semi's, even frigates are no match for about 20-30 imperial hussars

[Kynesie]

If you start kami, you can start to age up between 2.35 and 3.35 depending starting crates and treasures. ( gathering slowly on berries makes food crates and food treasures are much more valuable as japan). I feel it s all about this aging time and it s totally random. Aging at 2.40 and japan is a good civ. Aging after 3.10 and japan is trash...
If you are doing 300w or 2v, you will not outboom and not outmass. But it allows to get enought units to makes something happen if you play well, or sometime just survive until units outscale.

Yabusame could need a buf yeah, they are an interesting unit but most of the time you have to spend as much as resources in yabusame than your opponent in canon for an unit supposed to be a counter.

[gamevideo113]

Japan imo has lots of unexplored possibilities as well. And since it is used quite rarely i think it's hard to evaluate its actual strength. Not to mention Mitoe's japan was the only civ that was able to beat diarouga's chinese strategy on New England.

Obviously missed the Spanish Revolt game from Diarouga Vs Tabben in the semi's, even frigates are no match for about 20-30 imperial hussars

Yes my bad. Missed that game. Then i take back what i said about the New England strategy, but i still stand by the rest.

[zoom]

Deserves a small buff. I'm in favour of 300w fixed crate, just like china to buff early game.

I wouldn't fix the crates of select civilizations. Either, I would do it for all, or I would give Chinese a random crate. Anything else (including the status quo) would be inconsistent, and poor form. Fixing all crates has been discussed before, and IIRC, is controversial. Personally, I don't feel strongly, one way or the other, although balancing would certainly be easier with fixed crates.

[n0el]

All changes are controversial. Fixed crates seems more controversial because it affects everyone's favorite civ, not just a specific one.

[zoom]

All changes are controversial. Fixed crates seems more controversial because it affects everyone's favorite civ, not just a specific one.

As you seem to have missed the point: That particular change, is particularly controversial. It seems more controversial, to me, because of how closely split the community is (or was) on the issue. Otherwise, I would hazard a guess on it being controversial for removing a defining characteristic of the game, although I also agree with your suggestion.

[t3rror1sta]

How many matches were won by Japan in Lan Torney?
How many times it was picked?
If it was so good, I think we would have seen it more often.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Japan imo has lots of unexplored possibilities as well. And since it is used quite rarely i think it's hard to evaluate its actual strength. Not to mention Mitoe's japan was the only civ that was able to beat diarouga's chinese strategy on New England.

tabben did with Spain. Anyway, I didn't play well in this game. If you play properly, Japan can't win, that's why Mitoe didn't pick Japan in our second series.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you start kami, you can start to age up between 2.35 and 3.35 depending starting crates and treasures. ( gathering slowly on berries makes food crates and food treasures are much more valuable as japan). I feel it s all about this aging time and it s totally random. Aging at 2.40 and japan is a good civ. Aging after 3.10 and japan is trash...
If you are doing 300w or 2v, you will not outboom and not outmass. But it allows to get enought units to makes something happen if you play well, or sometime just survive until units outscale.

Yabusame could need a buf yeah, they are an interesting unit but most of the time you have to spend as much as resources in yabusame than your opponent in canon for an unit supposed to be a counter.

Yea I agree, if you can age at like 2:40-2:45 as Japan on a non wood start, you're in a great spot, and Japan is definitely a good civ but it never happens.
I guess the issue is that Japan is so unconsistent, and of course, aging 1 whole minute late is game changing.

[zoom]

How many matches were won by Japan in Lan Torney?
How many times it was picked?
If it was so good, I think we would have seen it more often.

Japanese must be nerfed, because Kynesie plays it!

[Mitoe]

Japan might be ok, I think. I usually win with them even though I’ve been thinking they’re bad, so maybe I’m wrong about them being bad and they’re just fine.

[Garja]

Japan is the classic civ that you need to master to see how good it is.
In general having rules that force players to change civ puts a big limit to how explanatory of balance tourney games can be.
Didnt Mitoe win the monociv cup with Japan?

[zoom]

Great poster, great post!

[deleted_user]

Japan seems fine

[[Armag] diarouga]

Japan is the classic civ that you need to master to see how good it is.
In general having rules that force players to change civ puts a big limit to how explanatory of balance tourney games can be.
Didnt Mitoe win the monociv cup with Japan?

The issue is that it's ok, not strong, when you master it, thus not rewarding.

[juhjuh]

iAlways feel like Japan is really inconsistent, like incase i found a bo witsh works for me in a mu but involves shrine boomin and sending karni and it is a Cold start and i cant affort to start aging at 3 30 i either have to not start consulate or just have like a 5 min age up time but shrine booming without port consualte dose sounds not to efficent. idk Maybe its just me and there are whays to get around this broblem

[gamevideo113]

Generally speaking every civ prefers a food/wood start over a gold start because gold isn't very useful in age1. But i agree, japan is a lot more hindered by a gold start than other civs are. Not sure if there is a fix for this problem, except fixed crates that most people don't like.

[Djigit]

Give them 1 more coin crate