Japanese Discussion Thread

[Hazza54321]

Links a video of yumi killing 10 uhlans looooooool

[Garja]

It doesn't get much different vs other cav, epsecially huss with shitty 20% rr.

[Sargsyan]

what, huss are like twice tankier

[Garja]

And 30% less numerous. Plus again the rr %.
In any case doesn't change the dynamic, yumi and w/e anticav destroy cav.

[Sargsyan]

yeah but less cav more hp is better since uhlans get shit pathing cuz of their mass

[Garja]

But they do like 3x the damage. And in fact I prefer cav of that type in general, at least for civs that don't have great dps dealers behind cav. And that's the case for basically all euro civs.

[Hazza54321]

U imply most uhlans reach their target though, no way are uhlans “tankier than huss” think what youre saying

[Guigs]

tbh miggo just made 15ww when you didn't make any nagi, could be so much more uhlans

[Garja]

I didnt make nagis because he made WW
I have recs where oppo goes full ulhans then you send nagis or samurai or even 1k gold which is basically a number of yabusame. Eventually you want a balanced combo anyway, from both sides.

[Garja]

U imply most uhlans reach their target though, no way are uhlans “tankier than huss” think what youre saying

Ye I'm not arguing for that, even tho you get more ulhans and they have 30% rr, so "ulhans being not tanky" is misleading.
I'm mostly saying that I just prefer cav that actually do something other than snaring so that you infantry catches up.

[chris1089]

I think Yabusame are fine. They are not goons, but they counter artillery well. The arguement, "Yabusame don't get used much therefore they are bad" iss really poor. It assumes that if they were ok they would get used lots like most of the other generic units.
Even if Yabusame were bad (I think they are fine) why does a civ need to have every single unit made average? Are civilisations not allowed to have strengths and weaknesses?

[Hazza54321]

really doesnt suite japan and i really dont like buffing them.
1. it would turn them into another skirm goon civ, the one of the reasons i like jap is that its not
2. japanese units are very hard to deal with once upgrades are in, and as you cant out-infantry them and cav isnt always the best vs yumis then u want artilerry as an option.

[zoom]

And japan has 3x the eco of nearly any other civ. Vill seconds are irrelevant when you have 21 factories churning out resources faster than you can spend at two barracks and two stables. Comparison of vill seconds has always been a moot point with japan because they are on berries, which skews VS calculations disproportionately anyways. Heck you could argue yabusame are cheaper because your berries last longer due to idk what ratio..
Units per cherry orchard? Cherry orchards per cav killed?
(Comparing damage per villie second is ridiculous when its just gonna make musks look like the greatest unit ever, that ratio doesnt and can't mean anything since range, speed, hp, compositional advantage, armour, etc. Arent being factored. You cam argue keshiks are the best goon with this logic)
Which yabusame are superior compared to ashi. They have 18 range and 8x vs artillery with 480 ranged health which is what this incredible 30 extra resources is paying for
Yabusame are a specialist unit and much better vs artillery than they are vs cav but the point stands, when both daymio and golden pavillion are stacked (which normal japan players will have anyways!), each yabusame has the same dps vs cav as an eagle runner, which no sane person would ever say are bad vs cavalry

Bias without shame. I like it! Still, you make a couple of valid points in noting that some stats are difficult to compare, directly, and that the Musketeer is the greatest unit ever.

[zoom]

Yabusame are definetely more expensive than goons. In fact if any buff I would have reduced the food cost by a little (e.g. 50f 150g). However part of the cost is because they destroy artillery and also it's relative to range and RR.
Japan eco is usually good and more than enough to support yabusame but civs like Dutch have pretty much the same for most of the game. And usually you have to cut some eco just to reach fortress at a reasonable time.
In any case yabusame are totally viable and I'd say straight up better choice than ashigaru in some MUs. One final thing to consider is that Jap units are so dps heavy anyway that you normally need barely enough anticav anyway.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/529857774?t=3h52m34s

I like Garja.

So, revert Jäger nerf and Yabusame buff?

[zoom]

I think Yabusame are fine. They are not goons, but they counter artillery well. The arguement, "Yabusame don't get used much therefore they are bad" iss really poor. It assumes that if they were ok they would get used lots like most of the other generic units.
Even if Yabusame were bad (I think they are fine) why does a civ need to have every single unit made average? Are civilisations not allowed to have strengths and weaknesses?

Wise words! Is anyone suggesting making the unit as viable as the most viable ones, though?

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Thing i would change to japs (biased as i hate the civ)
-Reduce LOS of starting cherry orchards and make it so they cant convert livestock
-Get rid of smoke screen ability, Or a least have if that only one smokescreen can be used per cool down, (so both cant telerport at the same time)
-Increase shrine build time??

[Kawapasaka]

Getting rid of smoke screen would be a big nerf in general, but an even bigger nerf to kami/classic greedy shrine boom play which we're already not seeing a lot of. Especially vs Ger for instance, a couple of free Uhlans can easily hunt down the monks and completely deny shrining.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Getting rid of smoke screen would be a big nerf in general, but an even bigger nerf to kami/classic greedy shrine boom play which we're already not seeing a lot of. Especially vs Ger for instance, a couple of free Uhlans can easily hunt down the monks and completely deny shrining.

Good, just like other explorers trying to build tp's etc

[Kawapasaka]

Getting rid of smoke screen would be a big nerf in general, but an even bigger nerf to kami/classic greedy shrine boom play which we're already not seeing a lot of. Especially vs Ger for instance, a couple of free Uhlans can easily hunt down the monks and completely deny shrining.

Good, just like other explorers trying to build tp's etc

TP vs main civ bonus

[Kaiserklein]

I think smoke screen is a must for japan to be able to shrine, however the cooldown might be too short

[zoom]

Thing i would change to japs (biased as i hate the civ)
-Reduce LOS of starting cherry orchards and make it so they cant convert livestock
-Get rid of smoke screen ability, Or a least have if that only one smokescreen can be used per cool down, (so both cant telerport at the same time)
-Increase shrine build time??

Real Japs smoke! Besides, how can you hate Japanese!?!?

[zoom]

What about replacing the "Paper Cartridge" improvement (+15% gunpowder infantry attack) with the "Trunion" one (+15% artillery speed), at the Golden Pavilion?

[iNcog]

no

[Hazza54321]

what for lol

[zoom]

It seems like it would help balance across all game modes. Overall feedback consistently indicates that Japanese scaling remains overwhelming.