Japanese Discussion Thread

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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by wardyb1 »

I feel like EP is much to quick to change the actual stats instead of just slow incremental adjustments to costs of some units and buildings. Like personally, if Yumi are too good, make them cost 10 food more or whatever, same with Ashi or Nagi. I don't know why Japs are considered strong at the moment but surely that is the simplest way of nerfing a civ. The unit still feels good but it becomes less efficient and the player gets fewer of them out. Same if you want to change shrines. Make them cost 5 wood more. It'll slow them up in transition and result in them getting fewer of them out when having to defend in age 2.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

wardyb1 wrote:I feel like EP is much to quick to change the actual stats instead of just slow incremental adjustments to costs of some units and buildings. Like personally, if Yumi are too good, make them cost 10 food more or whatever, same with Ashi or Nagi. I don't know why Japs are considered strong at the moment but surely that is the simplest way of nerfing a civ. The unit still feels good but it becomes less efficient and the player gets fewer of them out. Same if you want to change shrines. Make them cost 5 wood more. It'll slow them up in transition and result in them getting fewer of them out when having to defend in age 2.
I agree that EP could use a bit more simple cost tweaking, in general.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

wardyb1 wrote:I feel like EP is much to quick to change the actual stats instead of just slow incremental adjustments to costs of some units and buildings. Like personally, if Yumi are too good, make them cost 10 food more or whatever, same with Ashi or Nagi. I don't know why Japs are considered strong at the moment but surely that is the simplest way of nerfing a civ. The unit still feels good but it becomes less efficient and the player gets fewer of them out. Same if you want to change shrines. Make them cost 5 wood more. It'll slow them up in transition and result in them getting fewer of them out when having to defend in age 2.
Messing with units stats is actually a really big nerf or buff already. You make a lot of them, so in the long run this saves or costs you a lot of resources.

But in principle Im in favor of just tweaking some of the costs of some things.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Something is too strong, just make it weaker. Thats all the justification you need.
All the justification you need indeed, yet you derailed a thread for like 6-7 pages asking about why we needed to nerf Bow Rider if it's too strong, arguing that sioux spamming bow riders is both good balance and good design.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

I don't think nerfing Japan early age2, especially w/ regards to yumi, is the way to go. As Japan, you'll mostly go Yumi early on vs aggressive rushes like Aztec or Russia.

Does Japan need a nerf vs those civs, that already have an advantage? Hardly.

Honestly, I feel the "deck checking change" is the only thing that should be changed. Jap was considered fine before and this isn't even really a bug fix. It was there when TAD came out and nobody ever really considered it an exploit.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Petty argument, but I'll bite. In one case a nerf was done just because of design motivations, in the other case a nerf is done because a civ is too strong. Big difference.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Astaroth wrote:I don't think nerfing Japan early age2, especially w/ regards to yumi, is the way to go. As Japan, you'll mostly go Yumi early on vs aggressive rushes like Aztec or Russia.

Does Japan need a nerf vs those civs, that already have an advantage? Hardly.

Honestly, I feel the "deck checking change" is the only thing that should be changed. Jap was considered fine before and this isn't even really a bug fix. It was there when TAD came out and nobody ever really considered it an exploit.
The deck change is the big issue indeed, but with the current EP leadership, it's not going to get changed.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Petty argument, but I'll bite.
Funny you'd say that, since you basically just gave me the "cool gamedesigner wannabe" label.
I don't want to get into sioux discussion in this thread.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

gamevideo113 wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Petty argument, but I'll bite.
Funny you'd say that, since you basically just gave me the "cool gamedesigner wannabe" label.
I don't want to get into sioux discussion in this thread.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt. If that change was made with such motivations in mind, it sort of has some thought behind it. If you looked at the state of Japan and concluded that, ignoring all design considerations, this would be the most effective way to fix japan, then that would seem really dumb to me.

I just dont get how you can look at Japan and conclude that shrines need to have a little bit less hp only in 2v/300w builds.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

Looking at many Jap games, they do seem a bit overrated tbh.

Jap has a few matchups that are pretty unfavorable (Russia, Aztec, probably Otto w/ tower FF, arguably brits, maybe iro) and some that seem quite even, depending on playstyle.

For many civs, the biggest mistakes I see when playing vs Japan are: playing too passively, only trying to out-greed Japan without sieging enough shrines, doing too many things at once, staying age2 too long. E.g. if you make 2 random raxes and make some xbows, but then also take TPs, never really push, half-heartedly siege down 2 shrines with pikes, then Jap can just mass 1 million yumis, go age3 and own you.

What seems to work well for quite some civs is: pretty fast (semi) FF with some sieging shrines in age2 (but not full focus on that), then immediate heavy pressure with skirms before way of the bow is in (kiting), into either cannon mass or vet cav with cav combat, meanwhile sieging shrines all the time.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, just check out the Jap games in EPL2. Their record seems pretty average.

Which MUs does Jap win convincingly?

I think Jap struggles vs:
- Russia (unless opponent is a noob and makes only strelets and commits underneath TC vs nagi start)
- Aztec
- Brit (eg Gua wins this MU often, even vs better players)
- Otto (tower FF is really hard to hold)
- maybe Iro

I think the MU is fairly close vs:
- Germany (Jap has an edge here at slightly below top level, but Ger has maybe a slight edge at the very top with great micro and kiting)
- Dutch (some players call this really Jap favored, but skirm pressure into cannons or vet huss eith CC is really strong here; just like France, dutch loses this if they go prolonged age2)
- France (this maybe a bit Jap favored, but French players often play this wrong, staying age2 long is a big mistake here and you get cleaned by ashi nagi eventually. A strong fortress timing with cuir or cannons or both is hard to hold, see Kaiser vs rouga)

Jap wins vs:
- prolly Port ob land map, on sea port can win, depending on map (see miggo Jerimuno)
- prolly India right now. India can't rush Jap on EP and lacks cannons. Idk how mahouts do here now.
- prolly Sioux due to walls

Vs Spain I'm unsure, obviously 2rax ashi with CM and vill pull cleans overeager Spain all in FF. But if Spain is smart and sees you massing in age2, they will just siege shrines instead and mass army, maybe get stage. Then it kinda depends if, when and how Jap reaches age3. Straight FF as Jap should die to the all in.

Vs China is probably close. China cav and fortress timing (or Fi vs turtle) seems strong vs Jap.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think France vs Japan is slightly France favoured, other than that I agree with this.
Japan is slightly overrated. There are 2 reasons for this : Japan is frustrating to play against because they really need map control, you can die to Japan sending military shipments if you fb and can't scout it, and finally many top players don't play the civs that hard counter Japan (Otto and Aztecs).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

I had this idea that I wanted to discuss with you recently on another post.

What if, by researching Meiji Restoration at the consulate, you can train horse artillery and/or Gatling guns at the castle? since Meiji Restoration costs 4000 export and you lose a wonder in the process it seems like a fair trade. It would make the upgrade kind of a toned down revolution and not entirely useless as it is now.

It would also be historically correct, it's not like we are giving cannons to the Aztecs :lol:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

It would be irrelevant in 99.999999999999% of games, not sure why that change would be needed and/or balanced
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

gamevideo113 wrote:It would be irrelevant in 99.999999999999% of games, not sure why that change would be needed and/or balanced
I know most games do not reach to that age but still it seems reasonably balanced. As for the change being needed or not, I think it's subjective. To give you an example of how subjective it is, for me it's a good change and one that would make Meiji Restoration a little less useless and actually an interesting alternative to just aging as it was supposed to be in the first place.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by wardyb1 »

Jotunir wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:It would be irrelevant in 99.999999999999% of games, not sure why that change would be needed and/or balanced
I know most games do not reach to that age but still it seems reasonably balanced. As for the change being needed or not, I think it's subjective. To give you an example of how subjective it is, for me it's a good change and one that would make Meiji Restoration a little less useless and actually an interesting alternative to just aging as it was supposed to be in the first place.
It would be completely random design though. If you're looking to buff it you would make it consulate relative. Something like upon aging up you get a shipment of the most expensive army at the consulate of something. That way it makes sense that you are still paying export, your trade off for the wonder is an immediately upgraded imperial army.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

wardyb1 wrote:
Jotunir wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:It would be irrelevant in 99.999999999999% of games, not sure why that change would be needed and/or balanced
I know most games do not reach to that age but still it seems reasonably balanced. As for the change being needed or not, I think it's subjective. To give you an example of how subjective it is, for me it's a good change and one that would make Meiji Restoration a little less useless and actually an interesting alternative to just aging as it was supposed to be in the first place.
It would be completely random design though. If you're looking to buff it you would make it consulate relative. Something like upon aging up you get a shipment of the most expensive army at the consulate of something. That way it makes sense that you are still paying export, your trade off for the wonder is an immediately upgraded imperial army.
More like a revolution you say? could be :hmm:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by duckzilla »

Following the logic of the AoE3 campaign with the fountain of youth and some random Turkish bros showing up whenever you don't expect it, I would prefer Meiji Restauration to allow for trainable Spahis.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

#trainablespahis confirmed
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

duckzilla wrote:Following the logic of the AoE3 campaign with the fountain of youth and some random Turkish bros showing up whenever you don't expect it, I would prefer Meiji Restauration to allow for trainable Spahis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Siege_of_Malta

that was the one part that actually had some accuracy.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
duckzilla wrote:Following the logic of the AoE3 campaign with the fountain of youth and some random Turkish bros showing up whenever you don't expect it, I would prefer Meiji Restauration to allow for trainable Spahis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Siege_of_Malta

that was the one part that actually had some accuracy.
well the campaign was very loosely based on history so there had to be something, right?

In real life they had more Spahis than Janissaries so either they had infinite shipments or they could train them ;)
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Scroogie »

Yumi should cost coin. Japan shouldnt have a wood unit, especially not one that is as good as a yumi. This makes it possible that japan can camp in base forever. If they only had coin units, mines would be an important part of map control for them.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Scroogie wrote:Yumi should cost coin. Japan shouldnt have a wood unit, especially not one that is as good as a yumi. This makes it possible that japan can camp in base forever. If they only had coin units, mines would be an important part of map control for them.
Not really, they'd just put shrines on gold lol.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Scroogie »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Scroogie wrote:Yumi should cost coin. Japan shouldnt have a wood unit, especially not one that is as good as a yumi. This makes it possible that japan can camp in base forever. If they only had coin units, mines would be an important part of map control for them.
Not really, they'd just put shrines on gold lol.
exactly, but shrines are a lot more succeptible to military than jap vills on wood in base, and if out of mines would put a limit on how much gold can flow in.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah it does feel like it would be a nice way to make japan a little bit more reliant on map control, though it would still be extremely campy. It's just too big of a change, and also design wise bows usually wost wood
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