Japanese Discussion Thread

[juhjuh]

Generally speaking every civ prefers a food/wood start over a gold start because gold isn't very useful in age1. But i agree, japan is a lot more hindered by a gold start than other civs are. Not sure if there is a fix for this problem, except fixed crates that most people don't like.

my main Problem is not that i simply prefer Wood starts it is more that i sometimes feel like i have to adapt my strat around it. having a 3 30 age up or 2 45 with going consulate seems game Breaking in some cases and going for an shrine boom wothout going consulate also seems bad

[yemshi]

Keep in mind that coin starts are goid for you at times because your opponent also has a coin start!
That being said - coin start really sucks for Japan (and India but that's fine(?) ).

[n0el]

Yes, like many other balance discussions, the game unfortunately is inherently unbalanced because a poor decision to make random crate spawns.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yes, like many other balance discussions, the game unfortunately is inherently unbalanced because a poor decision to make random crate spawns.

Yes, and unfortunately there's nothing we can do about it.

[gamevideo113]

The arsenal you ship with the dutch consulate with japan is missing ranged cavalry caracole. Not that i think fixing it would be relevant in any way, but i thought it was worth mentioning.
Maybe it was intended to prevent 20 range yabusame? Who knows.

[Hazza54321]

20 range yabs does ssound pretty good vs art

[zoom]

Yes, like many other balance discussions, the game unfortunately is inherently unbalanced because a poor decision to make random crate spawns.

Agreed, entirely – although I am surprised to learn that you think so, too.

[gamevideo113]

20 range yabs does ssound pretty good vs art

AoE devs be like:
20 range goons - totally fine
20 range yabusame - OMG so OP , better not include it into the game

[dansil92]

Yabusame need some love. Hp buff, lower cost perhaps? (Buff shipment to 5x2 in fortress instead of 4 if they get cheaper?) Or a better multi vs cav

[duckzilla]

I would just buff their base dmg from 8 to 10.

Yabusame are a weird unit in general. They are the only (?) cav archer which does not have melee resistance, making it uniquely bad against the unit class that it should actually counter - melee cav. Their high multiplier against artillery (*8) makes them a stronger counter to artillery, although it is somewhat misleading due to their vastly inferior base dmg compared to other light cav. While dragoons are a cool unit due to hit&run tactics + ranged resistance and cav archers are nice due to their high resilience against melee attacks + nice rate of fire (low dmg though), the yabusame is a grotesque abomination of an in-between solution: high ranged resistance without hit&run capability and with low dmg output.


edit: the unit feels like you pay for a warwagon (60f/150c) but you actually get a longer range keshik.

[Kawapasaka]

the yabusame is a grotesque abomination of an in-between solution: high ranged resistance without hit&run capability and with low dmg output.

The combination allows them to do uniquely well against artillery though, considering that a big artillery push will almost always be complimented by a mass of ranged units such as musketeers or dragoons. Or if it's melee units yabusame have the range and speed to pick off cannons without too taking much damage, with decent micro.

[yemshi]

They are supposed to counter art at range and be somewhat decent against cav too. That's not confusing to me. They just don't do it too well...

[Kawapasaka]

Also I always thought of the extra speed on the Ashigaru as a kind of compensation for Japan's lack of any real, effective ranged anti-cav (apart from Yumi lol).

[duckzilla]

They are supposed to counter art at range and be somewhat decent against cav too. That's not confusing to me. They just don't do it too well...

That's kind of what I mean.

If you want to counter artillery, you still need to build like 10 yabusame (500f/1500c/20pop) to achieve what you could do with 2 culverins (200w/800c/8pop), since some yabusame will be focus fired. Their range may be better than other light cav, but they are still outranged by skirms + artillery itself. At the same time, they do not really fulfill a second role adequately.

A base yabusame does ~16-20dmg per hit to artillery. A culverin does 160 + area effect + 34 range.


edit:
I don't know about you, but I never use yabusame. Whenever I encounter artillery that I want to kill, I simply drop down some flaming arrows. They have a slightly higher range and do their job sufficiently good. Also they are nice against pretty much everything.

[Kawapasaka]

They are supposed to counter art at range and be somewhat decent against cav too. That's not confusing to me. They just don't do it too well...

That's kind of what I mean.

If you want to counter artillery, you still need to build like 10 yabusame (500f/1500c/20pop) to achieve what you could do with 2 culverins (200w/800c/8pop), since some yabusame will be focus fired. Their range may be better than other light cav, but they are still outranged by skirms + artillery itself. At the same time, they do not really fulfill a second role adequately.

A base yabusame does ~16-20dmg per hit to artillery. A culverin does 160 + area effect + 34 range.


edit:
I don't know about you, but I never use yabusame. Whenever I encounter artillery that I want to kill, I simply drop down some flaming arrows. They have a slightly higher range and do their job sufficiently good. Also they are nice against pretty much everything.

Culverins are obviously better at the job, but they're also vulnerable to other culverins. If Japan is facing a large artillery mass Yabusame can pay off easily if the opponent has made even just two culverins in anticipation of flaming arrows, as it renders the culvs completely worthless.
FA are the better choice for sure if no culverins are involved, but if there are then there's not much that FA can achieve save bumrushing with an overwhelming mass of them which makes the cost of Yabusame a bit of a moot point considering how many FA will be wasted by the culverins' first outranging volleys. That's where Yabusame can shine imo. Quite niche, but still an option. Maybe the unit could use a slight buff, but if so I'd only make it slightly better vs artillery, perhaps just by making them a bit tankier. Trying to turn it into a legitimate anti-cav option would be a mistake.

[Garja]

yabusame are much better than FA. All you want as Japan is remove artillery from the equation since the rest of the army is usually in jap favor.

[gamevideo113]

I feel like yabusame are also a bit underrated. To be honest their stats aren't that bad. I filled up a table with their stats compared to a dragoon's stats, with some upgrades you'd usually have in a typical game. The main drawback is definitely their cost, followed by their speed i'd say.

[Kynesie]

I don t get the 24 attack. (8*2) * 1.1 *1.1 *1.05 =20,238
And it s if you get the daimyo.
As yabusame can t kite as dragoons, you usually lost them all when you have to kill canons with.

[dansil92]

Gotta get all the yabusame cards in your deck

[gamevideo113]

I don t get the 24 attack. (8*2) * 1.1 *1.1 *1.05 =20,238
And it s if you get the daimyo.
As yabusame can t kite as dragoons, you usually lost them all when you have to kill canons with.

Yes actually i was wondering about that value too. I was testing in game (on RE so there's the pavillion nerf that's not being considered in the above numbers). The unit stats showed 12 as base attack, but it really doesn't add up if you do the maths. Probably the UI rounds up or something, not sure. I'm gonna test later again on EP.

For now let's assume thar your numbers are correct, so 10 base attack instead of 12.

EDIT: Ok so 8 is the base colonial stat. You need to consider that fortress yabusame have 9 attack, which the other bonuses scale on. It's [8*(1.2)*1.1*1.1*1.05]*2=24.39
Without daimyo it's 22.17

[Hazza54321]

U gotta remember cav actually kill yabs just like with pretty much any other land unit that isnt art

[gamevideo113]

Considering that the unit costs 30% more than a dragoon and performs worse vs cav and everything else, yeah, it's pretty bad to use them as you would use a goon. Still i wouldn't say it's complete trash because the stats by themselves are almost justifiable by the price. Just a bit too expensive imo.

[Garja]

Yabusame are fine. They are goon+culv and that's why they cost a lot. 18 range, and 50% rr also increase the cost. Can't buff a unit that has cost justified in stats and also does well at what it is supposed to do.
Also on a side note, yabusame has 2 attack cards, one of which also increases multiplier vs artillery. Probably you're not even gonna send either of the two but still another reason why can't randomly buff the base attack.

[Kawapasaka]

Just wanted to say I can't wait for deck checking to be removed, I've lost count of how many times a sepoy rush has turned into passive shrine sieging without even coming into sight of my base when I ship 5 yumis first.

[Qosashvili93]

The shittest thing in aoe 3 that u can see japs shipments

So unfair