Japanese Discussion Thread

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

wardyb1 wrote:
zoom wrote:
wardyb1 wrote:But isn't their scaling what makes Japan, Japan? Seems to just remove part of their identity.
My suggestion wouldn't remove scaling; it would make it less concentrated on a certain unit. Japanese scaling should only be reduced to such an extent that it is considered acceptable to balance, which RE Japanese clearly is not.

Admittedly – considering your strong opinion in favor of removing Uhlans from German shipments, as well as your comments on Japanese scaling being broken – I'm surprised that you would make this particular point, though. It is an excellent one.
I want to remove Uhlans from German shipments???????? What are you on about? Can you find a quote of that please?
Apparently I was confusing you with Stanley_Winston. My bad!
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:In practice Japan eco scales very well because they max out very easily and shrines never get idle. Also paddies are cheaper than plants.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
zoom wrote:It seems like it would help balance across all game modes. Overall feedback consistently indicates that Japanese scaling remains overwhelming.
I don’t think it’s overwhelming. Japan loses to lots of civs lategame on EP. They just get a large window where they’re relatively full boomed when their eco is still very centralized and their opponent’s eco is all over the map and paying for mills and plantations.

I don’t think their lategame is a big balance concern right now personally.


Honestly if anything maybe it would make sense to adjust orchards (at least the sensible ones, probably not the starting ones).
That's reassuring, then. If at all, how would you suggest changing the Cherry Orchard shipments, though?

If it were desirable to nerf Japanese for 1vs1, overall, the most obvious change to me is halving the number of animal slots of the Toshosgu Shrine, effectively cutting half a Villager's worth of resource generation, and improving the viability of wonder options.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

zoom wrote:That's reassuring, then. If at all, how would you suggest changing the Cherry Orchard shipments, though?

If it were desirable to nerf Japanese for 1vs1, overall, the most obvious change to me is halving the number of animal slots of the Toshosgu Shrine, effectively cutting half a Villager's worth of resource generation, and improving the viability of wonder options.
Possibly 2 Orchards should just be a shipment you can only send 1 time, and then maybe buff the orchards themselves a tiny bit to like 5500f or something. Then you have to consider shipping 1 orchard or switching to paddies, as well as managing your shrine income a bit more to maximize the food income and prolong the lifespan of your orchards.

Alternatively could just nerf the orchards very slightly to have less food, but that hurts Japan on maps where they're not as good already (2 berries + 1 orchard rather than 2 orchards, for example).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Nerfing orchards on EP makes little sense because all the civs got their hunt amount improved, so if it was unfair before now it isn't.
I don't see a sensible way to nerf Japan at the moment, which also makes me think a nerf is probably not necessary.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Yeah I don't really think they need one either.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Shipping cherry orchards twice is also suboptimal in almost all instances anyway, better off sending a rice paddy card.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Er... no?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by harcha »

Darwin_ wrote:Shipping cherry orchards twice is also suboptimal in almost all instances anyway, better off sending a rice paddy card.
Yeah that'll be a no on that one.
somppukunkku wrote:
dansil92 wrote:You're getting what is actually better than 7 dragoons and 6 musks for 800 export, which insanely good value
Wow, had to test it myself and its indeed insane value. Though, stacking 800 export can be difficult in tight games. Maybe somehow with 300 export shipment and Toshugu to fortress. Dutch ally bonus is also quite crap, 1 vill on gold.
yes, considering that many people now will do torii to colonial this leaves toshogu to fortress. however you still need some export stacked, which would mean that you're not utilizing your consulate to its early potential (or just don't make it and save some wood)
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POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jerimuno »

Why should people go torii to colo now?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by harcha »

Not saying "should", that is just an observation.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

but then you wouldnt use toshogu for III, only for V if at all.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

I dont see anyone going tori
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

  • Quote

Post by KINGofOsmane »

yea go make japs even slower with nerfing shrine wonder.
And stop try redesign every civ, there is no need to buff tori, already annoyed to see all those no eco bos.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I agree that no BO eco are just annoying, especially with the deck buff.
Rush builds (like 5/5ashis) are too viable atm, kami play is strategically more interesting.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree that no BO eco are just annoying, especially with the deck buff.
That wasn’t a buff, that was a big fix! It has no impact on balance! :uglylol:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Jerimuno wrote:Why should people go torii to colo now?
They shouldn't. That's why the first thing to nerf, at this point, would be Toshogu Shrine.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree that no BO eco are just annoying, especially with the deck buff.
That wasn’t a buff, that was a big fix! It has no impact on balance! :uglylol:
Are you implying that anyone has ever said that it's not a buff, or that it doesn't impact balance? Because I'm not aware of anyone ever having said that. Or are you still struggling to understand the concept of a bug??
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

zoom wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree that no BO eco are just annoying, especially with the deck buff.
That wasn’t a buff, that was a big fix! It has no impact on balance! :uglylol:
Are you implying that anyone has ever said that it's not a buff, or that it doesn't impact balance? Because I'm not aware of anyone ever having said that. Or are you still struggling to understand the concept of a bug??
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’ve argued many times that it should be listed as a balance change in the patch notes, and not a bug fix. Or at the very least it should be listed under both.

If it affects balance in a significant way, it should be listed as a balance change. It’s one of the largest balance changes in the whole patch.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

KINGofOsmane wrote:yea go make japs even slower with nerfing shrine wonder.
And stop try redesign every civ, there is no need to buff tori, already annoyed to see all those no eco bos.
It were a minor change. There is no intent or suggestion of redesigning the civilization, unless you definition of "redesigning Japanese" is making any one option to Toshogu Shrine viable, in which case there definitively is both.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Are you implying that anyone has ever said that it's not a buff, or that it doesn't impact balance? Because I'm not aware of anyone ever having said that. Or are you still struggling to understand the concept of a bug??
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’ve argued many times that it should be listed as a balance chang in the patch notes, and not a bug fix. Or at the very least it should be listed under both.

It’s one of the largest balance changes in the whole patch.
I have never implied or said that this change doesn't affect balance. In fact, I have explicitly stated multiple times – especially in addressing you – the contrary. It is simply the case that listing a blatant bug fix as a balance change, regardless of however much it affects balance, is incompetent and unprofessional. Let me take this opportunity, too, to state that I hold this bug fix (the change from an unintended state of affairs to an intended one) to be significant to balance. Once more, please try to understand the following concept:

Whether something is a bug has absolutely nothing to do with whether it affects balance. A bug can have any amount of impact on balance—including none.

Despite your insistence on spreading misinformation about my statements and views, I even went out of my way to overhaul the patch notes, creating a separate category especially for your sake, visible next to the balance changes, of bug fixes that have a most notable significance to balance. Considering all of the aforementioned, I would appreciate it if you showed me if not some appreciation, then some bare minimum of decency and stopped spewing this nonsense about me, only because your definition of the word "bug" differs from convention.

Thank you!
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Show hidden quotes
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’ve argued many times that it should be listed as a balance chang in the patch notes, and not a bug fix. Or at the very least it should be listed under both.

It’s one of the largest balance changes in the whole patch.
I have never implied or said that this change doesn't affect balance. In fact, I have explicitly stated multiple times – especially in addressing you – the contrary. It is simply the case that listing a blatant bug fix as a balance change, regardless of however much it affects balance, is incompetent and unprofessional. Let me take this opportunity, too, to state that I hold this bug fix (the change from an unintended state of affairs to an intended one) to be significant to balance. Once more, please try to understand the following concept:

Whether something is a bug has absolutely nothing to do with whether it affects balance. A bug can have any amount of impact on balance—including none.

Despite your insistence on spreading misinformation about my statements and views, I even went out of my way to overhaul the patch notes, creating a separate category especially for your sake, visible next to the balance changes, of bug fixes that have a most notable significance to balance. Considering all of the aforementioned, I would appreciate it if you showed me if not some appreciation, then some bare minimum of decency and stopped spewing this nonsense about me, only because your definition of the word "bug" differs from convention.

Thank you!
Nice talk but when I want to read the Japanese changes I check the Japanese changes, not the bug fixes.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by Mitoe »

zoom wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Show hidden quotes
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’ve argued many times that it should be listed as a balance chang in the patch notes, and not a bug fix. Or at the very least it should be listed under both.

It’s one of the largest balance changes in the whole patch.
I have never implied or said that this change doesn't affect balance. In fact, I have explicitly stated multiple times – especially in addressing you – the contrary. It is simply the case that listing a blatant bug fix as a balance change, regardless of however much it affects balance, is incompetent and unprofessional. Let me take this opportunity, too, to state that I hold this bug fix (the change from an unintended state of affairs to an intended one) to be significant to balance. Once more, please try to understand the following concept:

Whether something is a bug has absolutely nothing to do with whether it affects balance. A bug can have any amount of impact on balance—including none.

Despite your insistence on spreading misinformation about my statements and views, I even went out of my way to overhaul the patch notes, creating a separate category especially for your sake, visible next to the balance changes, of bug fixes that have a most notable significance to balance. Considering all of the aforementioned, I would appreciate it if you showed me if not some appreciation, then some bare minimum of decency and stopped spewing this nonsense about me, only because your definition of the word "bug" differs from convention.

Thank you!
That's not the point. The point is that it is not being communicated as a balance change in the notes. You can state that it has a significant impact on balance, but as long as it's not being communicated that way in the patch notes there's no way the casual user of ESOC Patch (or even the heavy user that doesn't read the forums very closely) will know that this change was made without being told or experiencing it themselves--or digging through a large list of most irrelevant bug fixes. I doubt anyone reads the "bug fix" section very closely, particularly when they are trying to see what major balance changes have been made.

I also strongly disagree with the fact that the Japanese deck checking was a "blatant" bug. It's been in the game since release in 2007 and was never changed that entire time--the devs clearly did nothing to try to "fix" it. It's become an accepted part of the civilization and worked into the metagame. Regardless of whether or not it was truly a bug it was more of a mechanic in the eyes of the players.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything; I just struggle to understand why it cannot be listed as a balance change or both when the majority of players seem to agree that it should be.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Victor_swe »

So when are why gettin 4speed ashi?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Never?
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