Japanese Discussion Thread

[juhjuh]

Problem with japan is the worse you are the better it is. Like it's stronger at like cpt/major i feel.

i think it depends on how you play it i guess if you play them agressevly but the same holds true to civs like otto it is just the fact that you controle the game so you dont have to react and having to defending is just harder .
If you play a defencif kami built you have to react and defend postioning youre units so that the cav pathes around getting good mm pops you have to read weather youre apponent is aging and so on

[Kaiserklein]

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

I've lost several times in tourney to them. I think if you'd take my winrate vs that civ compared to vs the others, it's worse.
Also Kynesie kinda plays it the old way, which is just worse against my civs and my playstyle I think.

[forgrin]

Potentially controversial suggestion: increase Cherry orchard building obstruction radius dramatically.

[dansil92]

I would honestly be happy just to remove the daymio/shogun as shipment points. Its just dumb. Legit (was cheesing vs a friend) in game shipped 10 ninjas to my daymio who was snaring germany's jaeger shipment last week. Its just *so dumb* to be able to drop-point abuse anywhere on the map

[Warno]

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

I've lost several times in tourney to them. I think if you'd take my winrate vs that civ compared to vs the others, it's worse.
Also Kynesie kinda plays it the old way, which is just worse against my civs and my playstyle I think.

Yeah it would be interesting to see the stats, I looked at tourney games quickly and found about 10 you won, and 1 you lost.

But I don't want to spend any time looking so I will take your word for it.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

I've lost several times in tourney to them. I think if you'd take my winrate vs that civ compared to vs the others, it's worse.
Also Kynesie kinda plays it the old way, which is just worse against my civs and my playstyle I think.

Iirc vs Japan is your best MU in ranked games.

[Kaiserklein]

Show hidden quotes

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

I've lost several times in tourney to them. I think if you'd take my winrate vs that civ compared to vs the others, it's worse.
Also Kynesie kinda plays it the old way, which is just worse against my civs and my playstyle I think.

Iirc vs Japan is your best MU in ranked games.

Probably only cause all lower players spam japan, also my games vs turk are probably half of the winrate lol.
And iirc the stats were just for ger vs japs

[harcha]

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

i think foremost it's the same problem that everyone has with japan - it's just so lame.
if you are untouched you win seemingly by default... you can be rushed but if you defend well (which usually isn't too hard) you also put yourself in mid-late game where you are just stronger.

[Astaroth]

Japan is just designed as a mostly defensive civ, which is slower early on but has better units and eco later.

Just compare the resources gathered and units on the map of eg Japan vs France: France outgathers early on with cdb, 4 cdb, hunts faster than berries, 400w age up, steel traps etc. France can also get out more units early on (maybe aside from a club rush full unit shipment cheese, but that basically means zero eco whereas France can get a good mass and a nice eco).

However, at a certain point, Japan will outgather and outscale. So France essentially has to use its early advantage to either do damage or get like full stagecoach.

Now I'm not talking about this matchup in particular, it's just an example to show how the balance between Japan and many other civs works. Which is obviously sth most people know, but sometimes it's good to keep it in mind. It's not like Japan has the same eco and mass all game from age1 and then suddenly outscales.

And tbh, the balance doesn't seem that bad when considering how many top players (also) play Japan yet still lose plenty of games vs other civs.

[kaister]

further proof to nerf ports @deleted_user5

seems like I need your help @kaister

Further proof EP8 Eco Teepees are not broken!

[Warno]

Show hidden quotes

Knusch is definitely more successful as Japan. Mitoe's Japan is also really good, but anyway he's so inconsistent in tourney it's barely relevant.

You just have to watch tourneys to realize how much Japan is played lol. And that's despite being a "poor" tourney pick, as in, it can get counterpicked and doesn't really counterpick many other civs. People still play it regardless cause it's so strong. It has become such a strong and noob friendly civ now that people don't overgreed with them.

Kaiser I always see you say how Japan is so strong, yet I always see you beating them in tourneys.
I remember a lot of games vs Mitoe, Kynesie, Rouga in high level tourneys where you win quite convincingly, so what is the problem?

I've lost several times in tourney to them. I think if you'd take my winrate vs that civ compared to vs the others, it's worse.
Also Kynesie kinda plays it the old way, which is just worse against my civs and my playstyle I think.

Iirc vs Japan is your best MU in ranked games.

Probably only cause all lower players spam japan, also my games vs turk are probably half of the winrate lol.
And iirc the stats were just for ger vs japs

I noticed that a few of your wins were with France as well, more so than Ger. But like I said I didn't look that hard.

[kaister]

also on a serious note do we have the japan pick rate for epl? considering the map pool was very stage heavy you'd think there wouldn't be alot of japan, but there was. If japan was doing fine on EPL maps with normal tp xp what is gonna keep them from being the top civ with reduced tp xp?

[Warno]

i think foremost it's the same problem that everyone has with japan - it's just so lame.
if you are untouched you win seemingly by default... you can be rushed but if you defend well (which usually isn't too hard) you also put yourself in mid-late game where you are just stronger.

I guess it is all just bickering back and forth until we see some stats on the issue.

It doesn't really matter how people 'feel' about a civ, more so how it performs.
Is there any way to find these stats on EP?

[Astaroth]

I honestly cba to compile stats in my freetime - but then again, the burden of proof is on those who want a nerf.

[forgrin]

Shame there isn't a tool to extract postgame stats from recs, that would be so good.

[iamturk]

Show hidden quotes

Japan is fine

@Kaiserklein confirms this

I obviously played better that game, that not means jap is lame.

Played better = sit in base whole game vs stagecoach, still outboom, run around cause I need map and you don't, then crush a fight with z move while I need to micro like crazy? That's called abuse, not skill.
If japan takes so much skill and is as weak as you claim, I wonder why you're a free win whenever you don't play japs haha

Imagine if i need to go out from my base when u have 2x more mass than me as GER at early fortress. I dont get this logic.

[Kaiserklein]

Who said you'd need to move out directly in early fortress? Surely there's a middle ground between never leaving your base until minute 20, and having to leave it at minute 10?
Also ger doesn't have nearly twice the mass lol. And your units are infinitely stronger

[amiggo1999]

Ger vs Japs does seem very shit for ger lately. I think ger's best shot is what castete did in EPL2 (FI)