Indians Discussion Thread

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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

_RDX_ wrote:
Luciofrancosi wrote:Maybe having the Indian player paying certain amount of resources to the opponent to trigger the cease fire like the explorer mechanics!! You could make it 500 gold or something!!
It would make more sense then what it is right now!! Why would the enemy agree to a cease fire that brings zero benefit to him??

You have to understand that signing a treaty is different from calling a cease fire. Sometimes, calling for a cease fire is best for the both sides of the war. I think we can't blame the developers for that, They already gave these kind of abilities in games like Age of Mythology. The point they wanted show is that the Taj Mahal is a symbol of love and peace and to make the indian civ different from other civs. But imo 'Cease Fire' ability is not the right way to do it.

Does anyone want to give a fuck to my previous post?



I see where you are comming from, sometimes cease fire is best for both sides!! But it was something that would have to be agreed by both sides you couldn't just stop a fight any time you wanted!!
Also the wonder that is symbol of love and peace is constantly being used to slaughter the opponent's army!!
This is also the only wonder that affects what your opponent does too which imo it breaks the game, it gives an unfair advantage to the person that is using as if Indian didn't already had enough advantages in the game
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Hazza54321 wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Honestly why is ceasefire such a big issue lol, when you play vs India you know whats going to happen and mostly also when its going to happen. If you can't prepare for that when you have 10+ in game minutes then its fault with you not game mechanics.
For ex. you could wall the small chokes to run away, force your opponent into bad positioning. Latest example is yesterdays game of somppu vs kaiser on arizona, 20-70 wood saved/won him the fight lol.

If you dont think its a big issue after watching the LAN then youre clueless.

Didn't cease fire lose to halbs, during the LAN? Or am I misremembering
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Honestly why is ceasefire such a big issue lol, when you play vs India you know whats going to happen and mostly also when its going to happen. If you can't prepare for that when you have 10+ in game minutes then its fault with you not game mechanics.
For ex. you could wall the small chokes to run away, force your opponent into bad positioning. Latest example is yesterdays game of somppu vs kaiser on arizona, 20-70 wood saved/won him the fight lol.

If you dont think its a big issue after watching the LAN then youre clueless.

Didn't cease fire lose to halbs, during the LAN? Or am I misremembering

It did, but that was because of better BO and me going cease fire after losing the siege elephants.
Anyway, even it weren't a balance issue (I think it is), it would need to be nerfed because it's broken. Cease fire should be a defensive ability, now it's just used agressively.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:just increase urumi cost a bit and leave cease fire alone

Cease fire is the issue, not urumis.

But isn't offensive cease fire the issue? Would it be an issue if not for being able to get your sepoy/urumi ball on top of their army?
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:just increase urumi cost a bit and leave cease fire alone

Cease fire is the issue, not urumis.

But isn't offensive cease fire the issue? Would it be an issue if not for being able to get your sepoy/urumi ball on top of their army?

No, it would not. That's why I said that a fix would be to let the military unit fight, but prevent them from killing vills/sieging so that you can save your agra and defend raids but not go in melee for free.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Currently cease fire is an issue because damage done is 0%. If damage done was 100% cease fire wouldn't be an ability. Imo test a damage reduction somewhere in between that balances the ability in the most abuseable scenarios (large masses of units from both sides).
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:
Show hidden quotes

But isn't offensive cease fire the issue? Would it be an issue if not for being able to get your sepoy/urumi ball on top of their army?

No, it would not. That's why I said that a fix would be to let the military unit fight, but prevent them from killing vills/sieging so that you can save your agra and defend raids but not go in melee for free.

That's the best fix I've seen if possible, not sure how i missed that earlier.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

I agree with diarouga on this one!! This is probably the best solution!! It would fix the Cease fire problem but the wonder would still be relevant!!
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I agree that the problem isnt even cease fire itself but aggro cease fire with urumi.
Urumi in fact are a problem, period. Unit is simply not countered hard enough by cav and other RI units suck vs urumi.
Then again Jap and China can reasonably deal with urumi so once again is just the case that TAD civ design raises problems for the rest of the civs.
If anything has to be tweaked is the rr or the rof of urumi so that other infatry units can atleast compete.

The primary use of cease fire is to buy time for shipments or other units in queue. For this reason we cant adopt Diarouga solution as it would deprive the ability of his main purpose.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

But then again, we forget the fact that india has no cav. By nerfing cease/urumi the civ has 2 viable units: gurkha and zamburak. That's why I started grinding cease fire strat in the first place.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, I discussed that fix with tabben, and we agreed that we would probably still go cease fire sometimes. Like build a TC in the middle of the map and press cease fire => free map control. Or save 8 vills against a raid, totally worth.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:I agree that the problem isnt even cease fire itself but aggro cease fire with urumi.
Urumi in fact are a problem, period. Unit is simply not countered hard enough by cav and other RI units suck vs urumi.
Then again Jap and China can reasonably deal with urumi so once again is just the case that TAD civ design raises problems for the rest of the civs.
If anything has to be tweaked is the rr or the rof of urumi so that other infatry units can atleast compete.

The primary use of cease fire is to buy time for shipments or other units in queue. For this reason we cant adopt diarouga solution as it would deprive the ability of his main purpose.

Not really, you could just run with your army. Right now you can't run with your army because your opponent would go for the buildings and the eco.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

somppukunkku wrote:But then again, we forget the fact that india has no cav. By nerfing cease/urumi the civ has 2 viable units: gurkha and zamburak. That's why I started grinding cease fire strat in the first place.

Before the cease fire meta, you would go gurkha/zam and try to outmass with gurkhas. India wasn't really good but not bad either.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

What if we just put the ideas forward, make a poll and the community just vote for one of them!!
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Kawapasaka »

Luciofrancosi wrote:What if we just put the ideas forward, make a poll and the community just vote for one of them!!


Because most of us are big noobs with no idea what we're talking about :chinese:
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

No, it would not. That's why I said that a fix would be to let the military unit fight, but prevent them from killing vills/sieging so that you can save your agra and defend raids but not go in melee for free.

That's the best fix I've seen if possible, not sure how i missed that earlier.
Apart from being technically impossible, according to my top developer, depriving the ability "Ceasefire" of its ability to cease fire seems sillyā€”even if it were to be renamed "Siegefire", which seems equally silly.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

I donā€™t think I would use it really if it were only to prevent sieging / save economic units.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

zoom wrote:ā€”even if it were to be renamed "Siegefire", which seems equally silly.

Rename it to Skill Fire to be more accurate
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

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Post by deleted_user0 »

What if we first watched some clips of how players react to cease fire and then analyze together if they could have actually played it way better?

Because even among very top level, 80% reactions seems to be a huge panic.

Secondly, one of the reasons why people get nuked is because of bot skirm-goon vs sepoy-urumi... Why do you need goons mostly vs (melee) skirm-musk army?

I have also seen many successful cease-fire defences.

Kaiser pulltricking army away?
Clever people sacking a few cannons, running away. If china wonder gives you 4w/s, I think cease fire trade for 2-3 falcs is still reasonable assuming its recharge time?
Tabben solid heavy cannon turtle defence vs diarouga on LAN?
Mitoe kiting with skirm mass in deccan?
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

somppukunkku wrote:What if we first watched some clips of how players react to cease fire and then analyze together if they could have actually played it way better?

Because even among very top level, 80% reactions seems to be a huge panic.

Secondly, one of the reasons why people get nuked is because of bot skirm-goon vs sepoy-urumi... Why do you need goons mostly vs (melee) skirm-musk army?

Because what else? To counter urumis you need cav or canons but both get rekt by melee sepoys.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

A big skirm mass with possibly a little bit anti-cav and a few heavy cavs to block to help kite.

If you end up sepoys and urumis on melee position next to your army at the end of cease YOU FUCKED UP. Don't blame the game.

Secondly, there is only one urumi shipment fortress. If you let india age to industrial for free and mass 50 urumis, as its already a slow civ, YOU FUCKED UP.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

Kawapasaka wrote:
Luciofrancosi wrote:What if we just put the ideas forward, make a poll and the community just vote for one of them!!


Because most of us are big noobs with no idea what we're talking about :chinese:



U don't need a lot of skill to see that something is very wrong with cease fire
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I guess there's an India lobby too haha. It's just less powerful than the ger lobby.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

Luciofrancosi wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
Luciofrancosi wrote:What if we just put the ideas forward, make a poll and the community just vote for one of them!!


Because most of us are big noobs with no idea what we're talking about :chinese:



U don't need a lot of skill to see that something is very wrong with cease fire

But you do need a lot of skill to try and work around the cease fire. I don't think players tried to counter it enough tbh
I didn't see any aggro walls+gate in the tourney which totally shit cease fire units pathing (remember they cant siege during cease fire)
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I guess there's an India lobby too haha. It's just less powerful than the ger lobby.

It's just painful that you create a playstyle for a civ that ignores the civ weaknesses like bad anti-art and bad cav in 2018, 11 years after release, and then some people don't even want to analyze their own mistakes before wanting to make it completely useless in 2019.

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