Indians Discussion Thread

[princeofcarthage]

Closed spacing allows urumi to inflict area damage, probably the reason why 10 well spaced hussars would inflict more effective damage than 30 packed coy/cossacks

Again, I'm not sure. Please explain to me the technical details of aoe3 splash damage.

Well you can test it yourself. Again I am not entirely motivated to write an whole essay explaining everything cuz I am almost sure that you know it. But from quick playtest say standard urumi shipment is 7 urumi so 7 urumi vs n no. of hussars in this case 6.

Remember this is with zero micro and hence real game results will different from player to player, fight to fight.

case 1: 6 hussars vs 7 urumi straight front : (avg) at least 3 hussars alive with ~180 , ~240, ~ 260 hp in some cases 4th with very low hp depending on how fight is actually simulated.
case 2: 6 hussars vs 7 urumi hussar circling urumi : 6 hussars alive in 99% of cases with ~1% having 5 hussars

Now I am sure you know how splash works so please consider this example as proof of my claim.

Edit : this test was few months back

[Garja]

Yeah i have definitely struggled vs india as aztec enough times to know a low hp 10rr unit that bunches together gets wrecked by urumi. Thats AFTER coyote combat, temple support and 10wp attack dance and they still take around 30 to beat the 7 urumi just by themselves. Eagle runners kiting is really the only answer aztec has unless you are REALLY cheeky and put the coyote in cover mode and let mace/erk dps behind them. Russia has a similar problem with cossacks being quite low hp

I'd love to test your scenario. I think Coyotes win easily.

Guess who showed you that.

[dansil92]

Okay i tested and apparently it is in fact the sepoy that are the issue to some extent. Its roughly 15 coyote where you can start to easily beat the 7 urumi by themselves

[zoom]

Closed spacing allows urumi to inflict area damage, probably the reason why 10 well spaced hussars would inflict more effective damage than 30 packed coy/cossacks

Again, I'm not sure. Please explain to me the technical details of aoe3 splash damage.

Well you can test it yourself. Again I am not entirely motivated to write an whole essay explaining everything cuz I am almost sure that you know it. But from quick playtest say standard urumi shipment is 7 urumi so 7 urumi vs n no. of hussars in this case 6.

Remember this is with zero micro and hence real game results will different from player to player, fight to fight.

case 1: 6 hussars vs 7 urumi straight front : (avg) at least 3 hussars alive with ~180 , ~240, ~ 260 hp in some cases 4th with very low hp depending on how fight is actually simulated.
case 2: 6 hussars vs 7 urumi hussar circling urumi : 6 hussars alive in 99% of cases with ~1% having 5 hussars

Now I am sure you know how splash works so please consider this example as proof of my claim.

Edit : this test was few months back

No, I don't know how splash works, at all. I learned as much when I tested it, last year, and it turned out that it doesn't follow any apparent logic – including in the code!! We've been unable to confirm anything on it. What we did notice, however, is that the damage cap is extremely limiting for splash damage. From your posts, I doubt you're even aware of that fact. I'm aware that splash damage causes damage to secondary targets. My point is that you seem to be making assumptions about splash damage in AoE3 – specifically about Urumis vs Coyote Runners – without actually knowing anything about how it works, which appears extremely complicated (or at least difficult to understand).

I definitely do not understand it. If you actually do know, I'm very interested in learning about it. That's all I mean.

[zoom]

Yeah i have definitely struggled vs india as aztec enough times to know a low hp 10rr unit that bunches together gets wrecked by urumi. Thats AFTER coyote combat, temple support and 10wp attack dance and they still take around 30 to beat the 7 urumi just by themselves. Eagle runners kiting is really the only answer aztec has unless you are REALLY cheeky and put the coyote in cover mode and let mace/erk dps behind them. Russia has a similar problem with cossacks being quite low hp

I'd love to test your scenario. I think Coyotes win easily.

Guess who showed you that.

Everything I've seen in life, has been shown to me by Garja. My entire life has been given by Garja.

[zoom]

LEAKED INFORMATION

cease fire ; changed that you can fight during your cease fire but your opponent remains passive and peaceful.

Close enough, my Somali friend. Try:

– “Taj Mahal” wonder “Cease Fire” ability duration decreased from 20 to 15 seconds; now also halves all military unit speed

Eaglemut and Kevsoft are doing Garja's work, whether he commissions it or not!

[flontier]

Last sup cup yesterday, 17 games out of 41 implied india while many civ hasnt been played a single time, and fortunately the winner dont play that civ otherwise we would be around 50% percent, there is something weird in the balance .

[zoom]

I think a lot of it has to do with Ceasefire, map pools, and perception, though. Still, I agree Indians seems one of the stronger civilizations, presently.

[Hazza54321]

What are you talking about, theyre average overall

[lordraphael]

Remove ceasefire. Apart from it being a broken mechanic, it's impact on the game is even stronger than just the ceasefire every 15 min. The mere threat of having ceasefire is so big that it already changes gameplay and strats.
Juet such a sad mechanic.
If rather have Taj mahal be completely useless than with. Cease fire.

[Kawapasaka]

Counterpoint: Remove India

[deleted_user0]

What's the point of somali tactics if they ain't broken

[zoom]

Remove ceasefire. Apart from it being a broken mechanic, it's impact on the game is even stronger than just the ceasefire every 15 min. The mere threat of having ceasefire is so big that it already changes gameplay and strats.
Juet such a sad mechanic.
If rather have Taj mahal be completely useless than with. Cease fire.

It's certainly an option.

[gamevideo113]

I think india has been picked a lot lately because the civ pool was favouring it and because it is a versatile civ. It is overall one of the most popular and civs like brits or france that can adapt to a lot of situations quite well, therefore i can see why it would be in a lot of players' arsenal.
We should accept the fact that some civs are more popular than others and regardless of the state of balance they will always be picked more. India will always be more popular than iro and that's due to civ design and personal preference. If you want to make iro more popular at all costs you risk overbuffing them and creating an imbalance just for the sake of having more diversity, which isn't ideal. Imo india right now isn't necessarily above average if you exclude the cease fire part.
Anyway, cease fire could also grant a temporary HP buff to villagers and buildings if the EP 7 solution doesn't fit well.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Iro is already one of the best civs lol.

[gamevideo113]

Are we sure that siege elephants are fine? I mean, they’re my favourite thing about india, but this unit is just insane if you ask me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

They're not great honestly.

You have to spend 500f to deny your opponent's 2 falc shipment, and then they're useless because siege is not very good moqr of the time.
Against sea or Japan they're great however but I guess that's not an issue.

[amiggo1999]

I agree with @Diarouga they are not op by any means. Sure they are a good way of dealing of dealing with falcs early age 3, but other than that they aren't anything special. If anything they need a buff in like age 4 for additional range, since India has no land unit that can deal with frigates.

[Riotcoke]

India also can't deal with heavy cannons or light cannons at all since they both outrange the siege elephant.

[Hazza54321]

Sepoy cease is the best culverin in the game.

[Kaiserklein]

India also can't deal with heavy cannons or light cannons at all since they both outrange the siege elephant.

Heavies don't outrange siege eles, it's just that you need 5 siege ele shots (3 volleys with the 2 siege eles shipment) to kill a heavy cannon, which is kinda ridiculous considering that unit is almost as expensive as 2 culvs.

[gamevideo113]

Idk, the unit has great survivability since it has 4 speed and 700 hitpoints, and unlike culvs, once you killed the enemy falcs you can still use it to siege buildings since it has almost the same DPS of a mortar. Siege elephants don’t hinder the speed of your army like any other artillery piece does. Maybe they are not the best culvs because they only have 28 range (their speed still allows them to close in and back out against other artillery, their micro potential is unparalleled imo), but as mortars they are so good, since they also have a faster RoF than most other artillery and they are available in age3. Maybe i’ve had this impression because i’ve seen them used vs japan a lot and as diarouga said, they are good in that MU, but i still stand by the idea that they are a good unit.

[Riotcoke]

India also can't deal with heavy cannons or light cannons at all since they both outrange the siege elephant.

Heavies don't outrange siege eles, it's just that you need 5 siege ele shots (3 volleys with the 2 siege eles shipment) to kill a heavy cannon, which is kinda ridiculous considering that unit is almost as expensive as 2 culvs.

Oh my mistake, thought heavies had 30 range, but yeah siege ellies don't counter them at all.

[randerzbobanderz]

The greatest strengths of Siege elephants IMO are their mobility and health. They aren't as fragile as other Art. and also don't get caught by melee inf as easily.

[Kaiserklein]

Idk, the unit has great survivability since it has 4 speed and 700 hitpoints, and unlike culvs, once you killed the enemy falcs you can still use it to siege buildings since it has almost the same DPS of a mortar. Siege elephants don’t hinder the speed of your army like any other artillery piece does. Maybe they are not the best culvs because they only have 28 range (their speed still allows them to close in and back out against other artillery, their micro potential is unparalleled imo), but as mortars they are so good, since they also have a faster RoF than most other artillery and they are available in age3. Maybe i’ve had this impression because i’ve seen them used vs japan a lot and as diarouga said, they are good in that MU, but i still stand by the idea that they are a good unit.

Nah they're shit. Sure they're mobile and they can siege, but they cost 700 fucking resources. And they're light cav so they die to skirms, so not sure about the "great survivability".