Indians Discussion Thread

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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

somppukunkku wrote:What if we first watched some clips of how players react to cease fire and then analyze together if they could have actually played it way better?

Because even among very top level, 80% reactions seems to be a huge panic.

Secondly, one of the reasons why people get nuked is because of bot skirm-goon vs sepoy-urumi... Why do you need goons mostly vs (melee) skirm-musk army?

I have also seen many successful cease-fire defences.

Kaiser pulltricking army away?
Clever people sacking a few cannons, running away. If china wonder gives you 4w/s, I think cease fire trade for 2-3 falcs is still reasonable assuming its recharge time?
Tabben solid heavy cannon turtle defence vs diarouga on LAN?
Mitoe kiting with skirm mass in deccan?
In general, players should consider what they could be doing differently, to win a given game, before considering balance.

Regardless, Ceasefire, combined with Urumi, does appear to be an issue. Tugging at either end, is an option.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

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Post by zoom »

somppukunkku wrote:I mean, what's even point of doing innovative strats if it will be nerfed anyway?
Should just learn to bot skirm-goon I guess.
I'm not concerned with whether a strategy is innovative, or who "invented" it. I'm concerned with whether it can be reasonably countered. You should be, too. This is a strategy game, after all.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

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Post by zoom »

deleted_user wrote:I think nerfing cease fire would put india in bad spot. Zamburaks RR were nerfed, so you would like to go with sepoy + urumi stuffs which somppu showed a good way to play it and Instead of dealing against these new strats, ep is nerfing them. It won't help to balance anything, will reduce the variety, at the end of the day it will be same story as what was done to water.

somppukunkku wrote:
Show hidden quotes

To be fair, basically only the bug part of aztec FI was nerfed?
With water can't disagree and I still think they nerfed it too hard because people didn't want to learn to play against it.

Thats the point, like when we ask why monitors were nerfed to Zoi, he said they were too op, but he misses the point that you should be rewarded for holding the sea control and it's your reward. But I think in general, new strats/ways are rather not welcomed sadly.
1. EP hasn't nerfed Ceasefire.
2. EP has also nerfed Sepoys. What's your point?
3. You seem awfully confident in Ceasefire not being a balance issue.
4. You seem awfully incapable of understanding that if something is unbalanced enough, it makes sense to balance it, whether it's the Aztec War Chief, Monitors, or The Exiled Prince. It's funny how, in your mind, certain things arbitrarily cannot be unbalanced and are untouchable.
5. I didn't miss that point. I absolutely agree that sea control should be rewarded ā€“ it just doesn't justify Monitors being both game-breaking and uncounterable.

Your bias and flawed logic are just silly, sometimes.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

_RDX_ wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:Dont worry noobs HUMMAN always brings up best solution. In first 5 seconds of Ceasefire units can attack each other. Thus suprise affect of it is gone.

I already suggested this but no one gives a fuck.
It is technically impossible. Otherwise I might have given a fuck or two.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

Seems to be the problem with most ā€œfixesā€.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

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Post by princeofkabul »

Even though I like nuking @H2O_ entire skirm armies with this ability, this shit doesn't belong in rts game.
It could be changed that it only affects buildings and vills and have less recharge time. You could still use it to pop stuff by saving certain shipment points before them being sieged down, to save vills or to build a tc as india with 8 vills on it when the ability is activated. like @Diarouga suggested to me in the LAN.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

princeofkabul wrote:Even though I like nuking @H2O_ entire skirm armies with this ability, this shit doesn't belong in rts game.
It could be changed that it only affects buildings and vills and have less recharge time. You could still use it to pop stuff by saving certain shipment points before them being sieged down, to save vills or to build a tc as india with 8 vills on it when the ability is activated. like @Diarouga suggested to me in the LAN.

In the same regard, maybe remove the ability of Asian vills to build Tcs as it's just an unfair mechanic.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Riotcoke wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:Even though I like nuking @H2O_ entire skirm armies with this ability, this shit doesn't belong in rts game.
It could be changed that it only affects buildings and vills and have less recharge time. You could still use it to pop stuff by saving certain shipment points before them being sieged down, to save vills or to build a tc as india with 8 vills on it when the ability is activated. like @Diarouga suggested to me in the LAN.

In the same regard, maybe remove the ability of Asian vills to build Tcs as it's just an unfair mechanic.

Asian villagers being able to build TCs is a good mechanic given the cost of buying Asian explorers back at the TC (more coin granted it isn't given to opponent, takes up a villager train queue slot) and the general slowness of Asian civs.

Cease fire is bad game design.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Maybe make ceasefire have a cost the same way that trade monop has a cost? Rewatching the tourney matches and reflecting on it in regards to this thread i think the real trouble is india doesnt have any artillery options so cheesing a ceasfire urumi mahout sepoy is sometimes the only way to win for india... take that away and it's just a mediocre skirm goon civ

(On another note WHY DID YOU TRY TO MELEE HEAVY CANNONS WITH URUMI)


If we are talking buffing india cav perhaps moving the jat lancer shipment to fortress/making jat lancers a real unit for india could be a potential option. Some sort of artillery would be helpful since a siege ellie is really just like 8 arrow knights all jammed up into one unit... idk just throwing some thoughts out there
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

dansil92 wrote:Maybe make ceasefire have a cost the same way that trade monop has a cost? Rewatching the tourney matches and reflecting on it in regards to this thread i think the real trouble is india doesnt have any artillery options so cheesing a ceasfire urumi mahout sepoy is sometimes the only way to win for india...



That might work, and maybe the cost should be paid to the opponent!! Otherwise why would the enemy units just agree to stop a fight if they don't get any benefit from it!!

Also India already have a bunch of stuff going on for them, they would still be a top tier civ regardless!!
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

I think YOU are gonna have to start paying res for every exclamation mark XD
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Luciofrancosi »

dansil92 wrote:I think YOU are gonna have to start paying res for every exclamation mark XD



Lol, I never noticed I used it that much!
:lol:
Bad habits, I guess
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by _RDX_ »

Is it possible to give a buff to rajputs or reduce their cost? They cost 135 resources but they're not even as good as rodeleros. Doing this could pave way to new meta and strategies instead of just going for sepoys and gurkhas.
oranges.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

_RDX_ wrote:Is it possible to give a buff to rajputs or reduce their cost? They cost 135 resources but they're not even as good as rodeleros. Doing this could pave way to new meta and strategies instead of just going for sepoys and gurkhas.

If you want upgraded rajputs, train sepoys and keep in melee :D

It's quite funny. Rajput has 135 cost, 18 hand attack, 150hp
Sepoy has 120 cost 15 hand attack and 180hp. So sepoys are better even in 100% melee, rajput a bit faster tho XD
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Rajputs are a bit costly, yes, but they are objectively one of the best melee infantry units stat wise, and hand infantry is not viable in general, so a rajput buff wouldn't really change the indian meta in any way, especially considering how good sepoys are.
Might as well make it 90f, but it won't really change anything in practice imo.
Rajputs are really only used in the industrial age in some specific games, where they are already reasonably good.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Why would you make rajputs when you have sepoys?
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Why would you make rajputs when you have sepoys?

Rajputs are speedy
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Out of coin? Mahout / Rajput? They do have ridiculous hand damage, like a speedy halb tbh

Like i think ive trained them 3 times but ive always been impressed how well they perform and they hide well in urumi to soak some extra fire that would otherwise hit the urumi. Idk maybe rajputs could have a place in the meta with a slight cost decrease, hard to say for sure.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

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Post by Aizamk »

rajput urumi tiger claw and you have a melee army that reks all
oranges.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by edeholland »

Aizamk wrote:rajput urumi tiger claw and you have a melee army that reks all
Do you not train white tigers from the explorers? They are pretty nice when spawning in your enemies base.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by _RDX_ »

I mean why it should be always sepoys? What's the point of even having rajputs in the Indian barracks? Spain uses Rods, China uses changdaos, Germans use doppels, they pay off for their cost but rajputs are too expensive 100 f 35 w for their low statistics. People are like, 2008: I used sepoys, 2012: I used sepoys, 2016: I used sepoys, 2019: I am still using sepoys, 2020: I will use sepoys in AoE 3 DE too. I want to see some innovative strategies being played by these kinda of civs instead of sticking to the traditional ways.
oranges.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

_RDX_ wrote:I mean why it should be always sepoys? What's the point of even having rajputs in the Indian barracks? Spain uses Rods, China uses changdaos, Germans use doppels, they pay off for their cost but rajputs are too expensive 100 f 35 w for their low statistics. People are like, 2008: I used sepoys, 2012: I used sepoys, 2016: I used sepoys, 2019: I am still using sepoys, 2020: I will use sepoys in AoE 3 DE too. I want to see some innovative strategies being played by these kinda of civs instead of sticking to the traditional ways.

Eaglemut uses rajputs, ask him :)
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

It's IGLE, come on!
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

Rajputs are just an awkward unit. They are best to be compared to pikemen due to both having a speed of 5 and costing food/wood. Rajputs are ~60% more expensive than pikemen (100f/35w vs 40f/40w) and come with improved hp (150 vs 120) and melee dmg both against regular units (18 vs 8) as well as against cavalry (54 vs 40). They biggest weakness is their very low siege dmg for their unit class (20 vs 32).

Conclusion: they are expensive, not too useful against regular units and don't do siege dmg. Nice against cav though.
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Re: Indian Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

They have the (very small) niche in Age IV or even occasionally III where Urumi+Mahout+Rajput isn't even too bad if you don't have coin.

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