Darwin_ wrote:Even if Sowars arent meant to be tanky cavalry, India has no good way of taking out cannons in age 2, and a buff to zambs would make them (india) way too good in team games, thus buffing sowars against artillery would be good.
Actually, giving zams small bonus vs artillery is best idea I have read here. India has subpar ff, so why not give them some way to deal with cannons in age 2. Also, judging by having full 4 unit composition in age 2, Inida is designed to be age 2 civ.
That is true, but zambs are already an extremely exploitable unit in Team, so buffing them would just make india too strong.
Esoc patch emphasizes 1v1, not team. Also, team play is even harder to balance, cause there are zillion possible combinations.
Darwin_ wrote:Even if Sowars arent meant to be tanky cavalry, India has no good way of taking out cannons in age 2, and a buff to zambs would make them (india) way too good in team games, thus buffing sowars against artillery would be good.
Actually, giving zams small bonus vs artillery is best idea I have read here. India has subpar ff, so why not give them some way to deal with cannons in age 2. Also, judging by having full 4 unit composition in age 2, Inida is designed to be age 2 civ.
That is true, but zambs are already an extremely exploitable unit in Team, so buffing them would just make india too strong.
Esoc patch emphasizes 1v1, not team. Also, team play is even harder or even impossible to balance, cause there are zillion possible combinations.
Yes but the same effect to India can be had by buffing sowars vs. artillery or in general, without making their Team play OP. It is very stupid to make a change that is good for 1v1 but bad for team, when their is an equally good change that doesnt effect team.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
gibson wrote:India doesn't need any unit changes, they need to be able to have a smoother semi ff that's a minute or smt faster then it is now....
That would be completely standardizing the civ, something that this patch is avoiding at all costs. Dont give India new options, make the ones that they have, better.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
gibson wrote:India doesn't need any unit changes, they need to be able to have a smoother semi ff that's a minute or smt faster then it is now....
That would be completely standardizing the civ, something that this patch is avoiding at all costs. Dont give India new options, make the ones that they have, better.
No it wouldn't and it's not giving them new options. They already have the option to do a (very slow) semi ff. This would be making an option they have better lol.
gibson wrote:India doesn't need any unit changes, they need to be able to have a smoother semi ff that's a minute or smt faster then it is now....
That would be completely standardizing the civ, something that this patch is avoiding at all costs. Dont give India new options, make the ones that they have, better.
No it wouldn't and it's not giving them new options. They already have the option to do a (very slow) semi ff. This would be making an option they have better lol.
You kind of have a point, but every civ can technically do like any strat, india included. By existing options, I meant the most commonly used strats i.e forward agra fort rush/timing push strats and other colonial play, like karni mata starts. Currently, India almost never does a semi-ff, because they by-design dont really need to play fortress, with a near-complete composition in colonial. What needs to be changed is something with that colonial composition to help india a bit with fortress timing, not giving them the ability to semi-ff themselves, which would totally ruin india's uniqueness.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
gibson wrote:India doesn't need any unit changes, they need to be able to have a smoother semi ff that's a minute or smt faster then it is now....
That would be completely standardizing the civ, something that this patch is avoiding at all costs. Dont give India new options, make the ones that they have, better.
No it wouldn't and it's not giving them new options. They already have the option to do a (very slow) semi ff. This would be making an option they have better lol.
You kind of have a point, but every civ can technically do like any strat, india included. By existing options, I meant the most commonly used strats i.e forward agra fort rush/timing push strats and other colonial play, like karni mata starts. Currently, India almost never does a semi-ff, because they by-design dont really need to play fortress, with a near-complete composition in colonial. What needs to be changed is something with that colonial composition to help india a bit with fortress timing, not giving them the ability to semi-ff themselves, which would totally ruin india's uniqueness.
lol that makes no sense at all, allowing india to semi ff a bit faster wouldn't change their uniqueness. Every single one of their units is unique. Every single one of their age up options is unique. They have like 120 unique cards. Their vils cost wood. their houses are cheap. They automatically get 2 wood chopping ups. They would be every bit as unique as they are now by being to age up slightly faster.
gibson wrote:India doesn't need any unit changes, they need to be able to have a smoother semi ff that's a minute or smt faster then it is now....
That would be completely standardizing the civ, something that this patch is avoiding at all costs. Dont give India new options, make the ones that they have, better.
No it wouldn't and it's not giving them new options. They already have the option to do a (very slow) semi ff. This would be making an option they have better lol.
You kind of have a point, but every civ can technically do like any strat, india included. By existing options, I meant the most commonly used strats i.e forward agra fort rush/timing push strats and other colonial play, like karni mata starts. Currently, India almost never does a semi-ff, because they by-design dont really need to play fortress, with a near-complete composition in colonial. What needs to be changed is something with that colonial composition to help india a bit with fortress timing, not giving them the ability to semi-ff themselves, which would totally ruin india's uniqueness.
lol that makes no sense at all, allowing india to semi ff a bit faster wouldn't change their uniqueness. Every single one of their units is unique. Every single one of their age up options is unique. They have like 120 unique cards. Their vils cost wood. their houses are cheap. They automatically get 2 wood chopping ups. They would be every bit as unique as they are now by being to age up slightly faster.
By taking the uniqueness out of the civ, I moreso meant in how they are played, which would be drastically standardized, and the reason why we havent helped india in that regard is also why no one is suggesting fast age-up politicians for brits and spain.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Hopefully with most of the top civ more or less balanced, the next patch would deal with india and other current low tier or less played civs.
I was watching some old matches and realized 2 things- ->that indian player usually had smaller mass(army) as compared to the enemy. Need to confirm after current tournament when same skill players play. Though don't expect to see India much. ->Mahouts even in groups of 3 are very less effective if opponent has good skirm goon composition and pulls back skirm as soon as mahouts become visible. It s difficult for them to cause any significant damage before going down.
As it is, its difficult to balance mele units. The sowar and mahouts are 2 extremes which are both less viable.
Going with the goal of patch team to make little changes. There are two things which can be done for next patch. - 1) Either zamb or sowar get the artillary multiplier, preferably with a card(desert terror). Sowar is a specialised cav which has less base damage. It has multipliers against LI but is poor against villagers and artillery etc. 2) balancing India's mele cav. Sowar and mahouts. In early game against smaller mass of LI sowar excel but their usefulness exponentially decreases as the army mass on both sides increase. Same thing for mahout. Making them less viable mid to late game. Instead of tweaking cost, hp and like; if the speed is changed it will keep them unique to India playstyle. Instead of changing base stats somethings which can be tried- a) Mansabdar units give bonus to speed as well (10%) and have pop cost same as the unit instead of double. b) The tech enabling speed aura of Indian explorer be made cheaper, and affect indian monk as well so the group is not slowed down.
Talking about design of Indian civ. It seems to be an infantry civ, with boom inclination. The slow age 1(more villagers cost per vs). Slower age ups to age 2 and 3. And homecity cards giving villagers which eventually balances the early game disadvantage little further in game. This means the civ is vulnerable to early attacks, unless it turtle. The agra rush which was discovered as an exploit and allowed for an offensive defense, masked India's vulnerability to rush. An offensive turtle strat like agra rush or forward outposts or blockhouse near enemy resources shouldn't be viable in all maps or games or it breaks or restricts the game. For India this part seems fine currently.
Changes like 700 wood or coin will standardise India and imbalance these cards compared to other India cards. India shouldnt be able to fight age 3 army evenly in age 2. But that doesn't mean it should go age 3 in same way as other civ. It should be able to follow up to age 3 at its pace with lesser punishment than it receives right now.
If the above 2 smaller changes are unable to bring India back in popular play then in the patch after that something like - Fixed 400 wood 100 food start OR +100(or 50) wood start with 400w 200f or 500w 100f OR + 1 extra villager at start. Could be tried and effect evaluated.
Other than in team I'm pretty sure karni is completely unviable in most MUs. You simply can't punish your opponent aging, you have no map control, and you just lose, at least in my experience.
For the semi-FF, I think the traditional tower to fortress is too punishable. Maybe tower to colonial, then taj to 3 is the best bet (lets you get a free shipment out under pressure). Agra isn't good for the semi I think, if your opponent masses colonial expecting to timing out of a contain then they just kill your Agra for free, not to mention you need to build rax to get vet ups anyways.
Edit: I think fixed start would be good for India. It doesn't dramatically change their early game but just clears up the macro and makes them less dependent on treasures.
So what have people been thinking about India recently, especially with how much we are seeing them in the tournament? Here are some of my thoughts:
As the stats would suggest, India seems fairly strong, but we must take into consideration that almost every time India was played during the rounds of 128 and 64, it was on Cascade Range, which is a map that heavily favours them. Honestly, outside of that map they seem decent, a solid 5-6/10. I do think that they still just straight-up loose some matchups, mainly vs. brit, Azzy, and Ports especially, even russia now does fairly decent against them. I think that not much really needs to be done, as with EP 2.0, we seem to be moving away from the TP/semi-ff dominated meta, and to a more traditional colonial and economic play-style, which India fits into decently.
The main problems India still faces is that players have been able to figure out how to effectively nullify 10/10 agra rushes, and this leaves India with slow, vulnerable agra fort age ups that dont really do anything particularly well. Dont get me wrong, their colonial is decent, but it comes nowhere close to Brit's or Azzy's, and is still countered by Russia, even though India has a skirm/goon composition (russia's biggest weakness). India always just seems not able to get any sort of advantage over their opponent, even though they have a lot of powerful cards, techs, and units, but they always come too late, or in too few numbers.
That all being said, many people are asking for the reverting of the main nerfs from last patch to this version, and a buff of the lower tier civs (India, iro, sioux). I have a few ideas for changing India if this is the approach of the next patch. I think India would do well with a fixed crate start (100f 400w, or just 400w (essetially this is removing the random crate and making it always be a wood crate)) or a buff on 600w to 700w. I also think that a Sowar HP buff would be better than an artillery multiplier for Zamburaks. If we were to do one of those options, I think that we would have to nerf camel attack to 25%. Personally, I would much rather boost the effect of Desert Terror to give Zambs or Sowars a multiplier vs. artillery, rather than giving them the ability from the start.
One of the key things that seems to be holding India down, is time. So many of their strategies are just too slow, and the civ in general just feels sluggish. Slow Agras arent economical enough, and playing off them aggressively is normally weak. Karni Mata or Tower of Victory age ups are weak, lacking speed and strength, and the former especially so. One of the changes done on previous fan patches, on the ASFP specifically, was that I think they reduced the base build time of India wonders by about 10 seconds or so. I played a decent amount of time on those patches, and even though India had been hit really hard by some other nerfs, and with those nerfs was about as relatively powerful as it is now, but that wonder buff helped them out a lot. I think it would be a cool thing to try out, but if the team were to include that buff, I would most likely see if they even need the other buffs I mentioned earlier.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
as someone who mains india at mid tier..: god, this civ is awkward with their timmings.
10/10 all in rush is stupid fast, and is still annoying for some civs on low food maps.
everything else is super slow. Standard slow agra sepoy pressure hits so late most civs have time to get vill card 1st and still hold np. And fortress age is so slow that its basically not an option, imo in the current patch (and on re) india needs to play 100% colonial every matchup and map, only going to fotress in the late game.
fixing 400w start might help, but i'd like to see some small boost to the fortress age (not to make the civ another semi ff civ, but just enough to make fortress age something that is at least remotelly possible) maybe gurka auto upgrading to veteran, idk.
I think a nice buff that will also expand their uniqueness is a 10% (20%?) building cost decrease. So now market is 90w, TP, baracks, stable, consulate are 180w. This and/or a discount in their market upgrades perhaps. The reasoning is that they work with wood so much that they are very efficient at building with it.
Another suggestion is to slightly lower the cost of some of their units like ghurka and sowar.
Both of these changes just makes them faster, which seems to be the main concern.
forgrin wrote:pls pls pls just fixed start, that's all I want. When I play vs Russia, Azzy, Spain etc and I get a coin crate I almost resign right there.
Plz don't resign as india vs russia
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
ovi12 wrote:This and/or a discount in their market upgrades perhaps.
Another suggestion is to slightly lower the cost of some of their units like ghurka and sowar.
Both of these changes just makes them faster, which seems to be the main concern.
Hmm maybe give them just 1st wood and the 1st all resources upgrade for free? I wonder if this would be more appropriate than just giving them an extra food/wood crate.
I think unit cost reductions seem cool too.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
ovi12 wrote:This and/or a discount in their market upgrades perhaps.
Another suggestion is to slightly lower the cost of some of their units like ghurka and sowar.
Both of these changes just makes them faster, which seems to be the main concern.
Hmm maybe give them just 1st wood and the 1st all resources upgrade for free? I wonder if this would be more appropriate than just giving them an extra food/wood crate.
pecelot wrote:yeah teach me pls how to beat gurk+zamb with musk+huss
tbh zam are pre bad when huss get them into melee, unless the person you are versing kites really well , but once huss get them in melee zams will go down so fast, also try brig hero in fight to snare zams , atleast that worked for me, youll need to mix lb after musk/huss, the only way to beat zam/gurk/sowar is with 3 unit compo, musk/huss/lb, lb >zam/gurka and huss tank a lot, like i said once zams are gone there is really much protecting gurka, ps: sowars suck
