Australia Kawapasaka
Lancer
Posts: 601
Location: Wales (new, south)

25 Jan 2019, 07:49

So as far back as I can remember in treaty lobbies France, Japan and Russia were always considered overpowered. France and Japan I understand 100% but after some recent-ish games I'm really questioning if Russia is that good.
The fact that they can stay popped easily seems more than negated by how awful the population-effectiveness of their units is (except Cossacks). Strelets are just complete trash and the wood cost can make them hard to spam in tandem with Nats. And Russia gets no good cards or bonuses for artillery except mortars so their anti-infantry options seem quite poor in comparison to pretty much all other civs. The only really good thing about Russia is the mobility (IE building forts and spamming out 100 musks on the other side of the map) but in 99% of treaty games the map gets walled pretty quickly and most fights happen in chokes. Am I missing anything important about Russia or is it only considered overpowered in noob lobbies?

On the other hand, I don't understand why Spain isn't considered overpowered. Unction is like all the benefits of Teepees but without the big downside (can get one-shotted at long-range). Anticav multipliers don't even work vs missionaries so suiciding a few Goons to kill them like you can do against Daimyos isn't effective at all (plus a church can be rebuilt with the FB, unlike the Shogunate). Engaging Spain on multiple fronts is one way to counter it, but like I said above it doesn't take long for the map to get walled and fights to be concentrated to one choke. Again, is there some big downside I'm missing?

Admittedly I haven't played either of these civs much myself, but whenever I play against them Russia seems underwhelming and Spain ridiculously strong. This is all on the official patch of course.
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Great Britain ListlessSalmon
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ESO: ListlessSalmon

25 Jan 2019, 08:09

On RE I thought eventually people landed on the view that it goes France, China, Port (in that order) as the top 3 with Russia just more annoying than anything else because of running and opris and Japan not actually being OP because of flaming arrow range. I don't know much about this though.

Also Spains eco isn't especially good.
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 448

25 Jan 2019, 08:13

ListlessSalmon wrote:Also Spains eco isn't especially good.

I heard that quite often, but why exactly?
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Great Britain ListlessSalmon
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25 Jan 2019, 08:23

duckzilla wrote:
ListlessSalmon wrote:Also Spains eco isn't especially good.

I heard that quite often, but why exactly?


Well just compared to a few others, Brit has livestock (as well as the initial boost from manors giving vills), German has Settler Wagons, Port is closer but has the initial boost from free TCs and having 4 TCs as well as having an extra eco upgrade from their church card that Spain doesn't have.
Australia Kawapasaka
Lancer
Posts: 601
Location: Wales (new, south)

25 Jan 2019, 08:33

ListlessSalmon wrote:On RE I thought eventually people landed on the view that it goes France, China, Port (in that order) as the top 3 with Russia just more annoying than anything else because of running and opris and Japan not actually being OP because of flaming arrow range. I don't know much about this though.


I have heard about Ports and China being OP before but only in certain situations, like if they're on the same team on Andes or something like that. I've only played treaty with a bunch of 1st Lts at the max so I guess my understanding of the general consensus isn't the best. China > Japan is certainly news to me though, I thought China struggled against any civ with good hand cav.
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Germany supernapoleon
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ESO: Supernapoleon
Location: Munich

25 Jan 2019, 08:43

Many top players think China is also op and russia is not but until pr24 noone thinks that because they play China wrong.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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25 Jan 2019, 09:09

Overall performance on all RE maps, I'd say:
France >>> China >> Port > Russia > Brit > Jap

France and China definitely most dominant while the other civs can beat each other depending on the match up.
I believe port has more favorable match ups than Russia, while also have a slight advantage vs Russia( game might take about 2 hours though).
Russia and brit also very close. Due to higher skill needed to manage brits, I rate Russia slightly higher. On top level ranking I'd swap their positions though.
r]
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 448

25 Jan 2019, 10:41

supernapoleon wrote:Many top players think China is also op and russia is not but until pr24 noone thinks that because they play China wrong.

How do yo play China correctly in lategame?
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Germany Lukas_L99
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25 Jan 2019, 14:50

duckzilla wrote:
supernapoleon wrote:Many top players think China is also op and russia is not but until pr24 noone thinks that because they play China wrong.

How do yo play China correctly in lategame?


>Have 119 vills with livestock eco and factory+porcelain tower+3 trickles from consulate
>use old han units (mainly standard army cause doesnt cost wood)+cav with 41% rr
>send the infinite 2 flying crows and 30 rattan shipments which are arriving in a few seconds thanks to confucius gift
>use the heavy cannons from german consulate buffed by your artillery upgrade cards
>send the 2nd monk and put him to cover mode so you have two 3k hp units with cover mode fighting and persuading the opponent's units to become disciples and fight for you
>win

Btw most OP thing about russia is the TEAM infantry training card. other than that they're not that scary.
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Canada dansil92
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25 Jan 2019, 16:12

I always thought russia was op because they can just send 15 opris while spamming musks to distract you, and cossacks are so incredibly pop effective?

I think top civs is france china brits but where france beats china, china beats brits, and brits beat france (generally) but my treaty experience is not super high level
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Germany Lukas_L99
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25 Jan 2019, 16:44

dansil92 wrote:I always thought russia was op because they can just send 15 opris while spamming musks to distract you, and cossacks are so incredibly pop effective?

I think top civs is france china brits but where france beats china, china beats brits, and brits beat france (generally) but my treaty experience is not super high level


Cossacks are pop effective yes, the rest not so much.
Btw you can just send 10 goons to kill those 15 opris and make a good trade while using less pop.

Brits beating france? No way.
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Canada dansil92
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25 Jan 2019, 18:28

Lukas_L99 wrote:
dansil92 wrote:I always thought russia was op because they can just send 15 opris while spamming musks to distract you, and cossacks are so incredibly pop effective?

I think top civs is france china brits but where france beats china, china beats brits, and brits beat france (generally) but my treaty experience is not super high level


Cossacks are pop effective yes, the rest not so much.
Btw you can just send 10 goons to kill those 15 opris and make a good trade while using less pop.

Brits beating france? No way.


I have never had much trouble against france as britain personally maybe it's different at your level?
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India TNT333
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26 Jan 2019, 03:39

Dutch boom ain't bad
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Germany Lukas_L99
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26 Jan 2019, 11:03

dansil92 wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
dansil92 wrote:I always thought russia was op because they can just send 15 opris while spamming musks to distract you, and cossacks are so incredibly pop effective?

I think top civs is france china brits but where france beats china, china beats brits, and brits beat france (generally) but my treaty experience is not super high level


Cossacks are pop effective yes, the rest not so much.
Btw you can just send 10 goons to kill those 15 opris and make a good trade while using less pop.

Brits beating france? No way.


I have never had much trouble against france as britain personally maybe it's different at your level?


Maybe at your level people are spamming 80% cuir, thats not optimal
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Canada dansil92
Lancer
Posts: 677
ESO: dansil92

26 Jan 2019, 17:20

@Lukas_L99 any treaty player maining france at 1st leut or lower just spams cuirs. Is it the heavy cannons that make a difference in the matchup at higher levels?
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Germany Lukas_L99
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26 Jan 2019, 19:33

dansil92 wrote:@Lukas_L99 any treaty player maining france at 1st leut or lower just spams cuirs. Is it the heavy cannons that make a difference in the matchup at higher levels?


Nobody should make heavy cannons except for germans cause they have the infinite 1 heavy cannon shipment. You don't want to spend 3000 resources on upgrading a unit that youre only using once in the startfight.
Brits just cant beat the 120 pop army of skirm/goon/cuirs effectively.
India TNT333
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ESO: TNT333

31 Jan 2019, 16:04

Lukas_L99 wrote:
duckzilla wrote:
supernapoleon wrote:Many top players think China is also op and russia is not but until pr24 noone thinks that because they play China wrong.

How do yo play China correctly in lategame?


>Have 119 vills with livestock eco and factory+porcelain tower+3 trickles from consulate
>use old han units (mainly standard army cause doesnt cost wood)+cav with 41% rr
>send the infinite 2 flying crows and 30 rattan shipments which are arriving in a few seconds thanks to confucius gift
>use the heavy cannons from german consulate buffed by your artillery upgrade cards
>send the 2nd monk and put him to cover mode so you have two 3k hp units with cover mode fighting and persuading the opponent's units to become disciples and fight for you
>win

Btw most OP thing about russia is the TEAM infantry training card. other than that they're not that scary.

What bout using the meteor hammer iron flail to tank while the art attack ?
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Germany Lukas_L99
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31 Jan 2019, 18:07

TNT333 wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


>Have 119 vills with livestock eco and factory+porcelain tower+3 trickles from consulate
>use old han units (mainly standard army cause doesnt cost wood)+cav with 41% rr
>send the infinite 2 flying crows and 30 rattan shipments which are arriving in a few seconds thanks to confucius gift
>use the heavy cannons from german consulate buffed by your artillery upgrade cards
>send the 2nd monk and put him to cover mode so you have two 3k hp units with cover mode fighting and persuading the opponent's units to become disciples and fight for you
>win

Btw most OP thing about russia is the TEAM infantry training card. other than that they're not that scary.

What bout using the meteor hammer iron flail to tank while the art attack ?
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European Union Shahpur
Skirmisher
Posts: 100

13 Jun 2019, 22:34

2 monks is a waste of card China has much better options. Besides that it takes almost a whole minute to rescue the monk.

If you have archaic card in your team then China can easily win France. And the people saying that China struggles VS cav is because most tr players just let their pikes run into skirm. Even if you run out of wood you can counter cav with your own cav since iron flail mix beats standard hus specially in larger numbers because half of their cav has 2 range which solves the clumping.
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United States of America dicktator_
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14 Jun 2019, 03:09

2 monks is great. They tank even more than port 3 explorers cause of cover mode, though they do take a long time to revive, they get all the benefits of cover mode without any of the deficits when they die in cover mode and you revive them. I am pretty sure that China even with instant old Han will lose to France. You are correct in saying that China does not actually have problems vs cav, because of rattans, disciples, and their own cav. But France gends on re are so good that even civs with reasonable anticav will struggle vs gend skirm. Cav clumping shouldn’t be a problem outside of chokes for any cav as long as you have a decent cav spread and don’t overmake cav.
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European Union Shahpur
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Posts: 100

14 Jun 2019, 09:11

dicktator_ wrote:2 monks is great. They tank even more than port 3 explorers cause of cover mode, though they do take a long time to revive, they get all the benefits of cover mode without any of the deficits when they die in cover mode and you revive them. I am pretty sure that China even with instant old Han will lose to France. You are correct in saying that China does not actually have problems vs cav, because of rattans, disciples, and their own cav. But France gends on re are so good that even civs with reasonable anticav will struggle vs gend skirm. Cav clumping shouldn’t be a problem outside of chokes for any cav as long as you have a decent cav spread and don’t overmake cav.


The card would be good if China didn't have anything else to choose for their deck but they have many other cards to choose that are better. And if you put your explorer to much forward he will die and you won't be able to keep spamming disciples. I always put him in front of the chu ko nu to soak shoots but behind the iron fails so he don't die too soon

The 3 Portuguese explorers + dog are way better than monk in cover mode you can get them instantly and they all have around 2500 hp besides that you can use 3 crack shoots every minute.
Bhutan jgals
Lancer
Posts: 560
ESO: OstiferButthole
Location: USA

14 Jun 2019, 09:18

Shahpur wrote: you can counter cav with your own cav since iron flail mix beats standard hus specially in larger numbers because half of their cav has 2 range which solves the clumping.


Does that really work though? I thought china cav rely on infantry multiple to do any damage so they will be bad in cav fights. Maybe they can beat pure lancer , but what about lancer goon? I still don't see how you beat gendarmes either spammed from any place at any time. The player was not great but I actually beat china with Sioux a few times using dog boxes and then axe rifle
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European Union Shahpur
Skirmisher
Posts: 100

14 Jun 2019, 09:27

The flails are soaking the shoots while the pikes and keshiks in-between are doing the real damage.

No decent Spanish player will use goons since they don't benefit much from the aura. What the Spanish will do is go rods and Lancer so too keep the rods at bay you have to use the German hc which blows 15 rods away every shoot. To win vs Spain is really important to have 2 hc all the time to keep away the roods and besides that you will force him to make culvs which take quite some pop
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European Union Shahpur
Skirmisher
Posts: 100

14 Jun 2019, 09:31

Shahpur wrote:The flails are soaking the shoots while the pikes and keshiks in-between are doing the real damage.

No decent Spanish player will use goons since they don't benefit much from the aura. What the Spanish will do is go rods and Lancer so too keep the rods at bay you have to use the German hc which blows 15 rods away every shoot. To win vs Spain is really important to have 2 hc all the time to keep away the roods and besides that you will force him to make culvs which take quite some pop


20 dragons will lose too 20 flails so flails beat dragons thanks to the range ress
Germany FloKo83 Aoe3
Skirmisher
Posts: 129

09 Nov 2019, 08:59

Portuguese explorer spam > france > china > japan

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