aztec 1000g temple upgrade cards-- which are worth it?

[Squamiger]

For the ESOC treaty patch, which cards are worth it to include in your deck? Eagle runner card seems amazing, to increase range. I'd probably rank that as number 1, since it's like a dragoon range card for Ports. Seems like it lets ERKs go toe to toe with skirmishers and muskets much more capably.

I would rank the other options as:

2. greatly increase pet jaguar attack, seems worth it because pet jaguars are always gonna be in play and you want them strong

3. increase villager gather rates on farms and plantations by 10%, this seems like it's worth about a factory shipment or more?

4. Increase arrow knight attack, another unit you use a lot, helps them do better vs. ranged infantry i'd imagine.

5. increase macehualtin HP, but macehualtin cost wood so they don't get a lot of play unless you combine this with 20 mace infinite shipments.

6. increase coyote runner attack. seems situational but useful. If I'm gonna spend wood on units it's gonna be coyotes vs. macehualtin, but they definitely won't make up the core of my army. probably rather just send coyote combat tho.

7. increase jaguar prowler knight attack. situational, I basically only use JPK against a musk spam.

8. increase skull knight splash damage. Rarely use skull knights either but I guess it's situational.

9. increase puma speed. I don't think I ever make pumas in late game except for big button, should I? Are they ever worth it compared to arrow knights for siege, or compared to ERKs for anti-cav?

So how would you rank these, for treaty? I feel like I usually can only fit 2-3 of these cards in any one deck. Can someone post a treaty deck / strat for aztec they use?

[Hazza54321]

mace and coy and jag are way more important than some shitty pet one id rate it as
1. vil plantation and mill up
2. erk
3. mace
4. jag
5. coy
6. arrowknight
7. pet jag
8. skull knight splash
9. puma speed

[dansil92]

Janey card is scaling off of base stats, so while its definitely good i wouldn't call it game changing. The erk, vill, coyo cards are the best. Jpk is kinda ok. Arrow knight one is a massive +2 attack so its decidedly underwhelming. Puma speed is fun in ffa, but not treaty. Dont use the skull card, its useless

[Squamiger]

mace and coy and jag are way more important than some shitty pet one id rate it as
1. vil plantation and mill up
2. erk
3. mace
4. jag
5. coy
6. arrowknight
7. pet jag
8. skull knight splash
9. puma speed

ok but i feel like pet jags are going to be a part of your army at all times, no matter what the situation, because it's zero population, right? So wouldn't it be better to upgrade than jags or coyotes or mace, which just aren't gonna always been in your army since jags are situational and coyotes and mace cost wood?

[Hazza54321]

mace and coy and jag are way more important than some shitty pet one id rate it as
1. vil plantation and mill up
2. erk
3. mace
4. jag
5. coy
6. arrowknight
7. pet jag
8. skull knight splash
9. puma speed

ok but i feel like pet jags are going to be a part of your army at all times, no matter what the situation, because it's zero population, right? So wouldn't it be better to upgrade than jags or coyotes or mace, which just aren't gonna always been in your army since jags are situational and coyotes and mace cost wood?

it just drains ur food for so little gain, cant fit it in deck anyway

[SquidTheSid]

mace and coy and jag are way more important than some shitty pet one id rate it as
1. vil plantation and mill up
2. erk
3. mace
4. jag
5. coy
6. arrowknight
7. pet jag
8. skull knight splash
9. puma speed

ok but i feel like pet jags are going to be a part of your army at all times, no matter what the situation, because it's zero population, right? So wouldn't it be better to upgrade than jags or coyotes or mace, which just aren't gonna always been in your army since jags are situational and coyotes and mace cost wood?

it just drains ur food for so little gain, cant fit it in deck anyway

Janeys aren't really countered by anything, and they have solid shadowtech scaling. Considering how squishy Coyote Runners are, they're a viable supplement, especially since you only have 90 military population to work with.

[Squamiger]

also I find that food is rarely the problem as aztec, i'm usually running out of gold. but thanks for the input I'll try out a game switching out the janey card for the mace or coyote one.

[juicyfruit1268]

The most important waterfront cards are, in order

Temple of Xolotl Support
Temple of Tlaloc Support
Temple of Xipe Totec Support
Temple of Ceoteotl Support
Temple of Coatlicue Support
Grand Temple of Quetzalcoatl Support
Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca Support
Temple of Xochipilli Support
Grand Temple of Huiztilopochtli Support

I'd always use everything above Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca Support, sometimes use Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca support, very rarely use Temple of Xochipilli Support, and never use Grand Temple of Huiztilopochitli support

[Squamiger]

The most important waterfront cards are, in order

Temple of Xolotl Support
Temple of Tlaloc Support
Temple of Xipe Totec Support
Temple of Ceoteotl Support
Temple of Coatlicue Support
Grand Temple of Quetzalcoatl Support
Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca Support
Temple of Xochipilli Support
Grand Temple of Huiztilopochtli Support

I'd always use everything above Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca Support, sometimes use Grand Temple of Tezcatlipoca support, very rarely use Temple of Xochipilli Support, and never use Grand Temple of Huiztilopochitli support

this would be helpful if i had memorized which Nahuatl names corresponded to which upgrades. props for spelling them all out

[helln00]

the aoe 3 wiki should have a list of the cards and their effects as well, you can just copy paste to check

[howlingwolfpaw]

For the ESOC treaty patch, which cards are worth it to include in your deck? Eagle runner card seems amazing, to increase range. I'd probably rank that as number 1, since it's like a dragoon range card for Ports. Seems like it lets ERKs go toe to toe with skirmishers and muskets much more capably.

I would rank the other options as:

2. greatly increase pet jaguar attack, seems worth it because pet jaguars are always gonna be in play and you want them strong

3. increase villager gather rates on farms and plantations by 10%, this seems like it's worth about a factory shipment or more?

4. Increase arrow knight attack, another unit you use a lot, helps them do better vs. ranged infantry i'd imagine.

5. increase macehualtin HP, but macehualtin cost wood so they don't get a lot of play unless you combine this with 20 mace infinite shipments.

6. increase coyote runner attack. seems situational but useful. If I'm gonna spend wood on units it's gonna be coyotes vs. macehualtin, but they definitely won't make up the core of my army. probably rather just send coyote combat tho.

7. increase jaguar prowler knight attack. situational, I basically only use JPK against a musk spam.

8. increase skull knight splash damage. Rarely use skull knights either but I guess it's situational.

9. increase puma speed. I don't think I ever make pumas in late game except for big button, should I? Are they ever worth it compared to arrow knights for siege, or compared to ERKs for anti-cav?

So how would you rank these, for treaty? I feel like I usually can only fit 2-3 of these cards in any one deck. Can someone post a treaty deck / strat for aztec they use?

I wouldn't make mace in TR ERK are just better overall. I only make them if I am struggling to keep my pop up and need a temporary army to fill in for a moment. Just keep sending the 1000 coin infinite card, Azzy need that so much more. I do not use the infinite native shipments.

I like the puma card but its not really needed, In ffa its really good though, to have pumas basically chase down cav. but since the battles are all crashing into each other its not as useful.

skull knight card only use would be a initial box, but I feel that is too risky and better to just have the XP shipments come in rather than big army of skull knights.

coyotes are so weak they really kinda need as much buffs as possible

ERK card is essential

Jag and arrow knight cards are optional and depending on what civ you think you are going to be battling against. Jags are really meant to counter hand attack more than muskets, though they do overwhelm. ERK can do that really well without such a food drain.


I usually do not send all my big button upgrades at start battle. I just start normal, and find an unexpected time to use them, either for a big push, or to defend my base from a side attack and fight in the main spot at the same time.

[dansil92]

Erks trade well with all musks, goons and hand cav late game, theres no reason to make mace unless, as above, you need to replenish asap. If you're facing pure skirms you're just gonna use janeys and warchief and some coyote, its so much more important to save wood for coyote rather than mace.

Some very simple maths will follow, as per eagle runners vs mace:
Erks do 42 damage against all units, with a further 3x vs hand cav, every 1.5 seconds, at 16 range

Mace do 22 damage against some units, with 0.75x vs cav (16 damage) and 2x vs heavy infantry (44 damage) and 1.5x vs goons (33 damage) every 1.5 seconds at 16 range

Mace maxed have 180 hp and 30rr
Erks have 369 hp and 30rr
Thus we can see even with 2x vs them, erks actually have more effective ranged hp against skirmishers than mace, and over double the ranged hp against musks. Additionally they do not take multis from artillery so erks have (roughly) 6x the effective hp against standard artillery, 2x the hp against rockets, 4x vs bombards

Erks are 6 speed, mace are 4.5 speed

The only actual advantage of mace is the train time (and at demolishing strelets cost effectively)

Erks dps down every unit with nearly the same dps as mace do to heavy infantry, while largely shrugging off artillery, and demolishing heavy cav. If anyone tells you not to use erks or the erk range card, they're a disgusting liar or delusional. Just watch out for longbows

[howlingwolfpaw]

Erks trade well with all musks, goons and hand cav late game, theres no reason to make mace unless, as above, you need to replenish asap. If you're facing pure skirms you're just gonna use janeys and warchief and some coyote, its so much more important to save wood for coyote rather than mace.

Some very simple maths will follow, as per eagle runners vs mace:
Erks do 42 damage against all units, with a further 3x vs hand cav, every 1.5 seconds, at 16 range

Mace do 22 damage against some units, with 0.75x vs cav (16 damage) and 2x vs heavy infantry (44 damage) and 1.5x vs goons (33 damage) every 1.5 seconds at 16 range

Mace maxed have 180 hp and 30rr
Erks have 369 hp and 30rr
Thus we can see even with 2x vs them, erks actually have more effective ranged hp against skirmishers than mace, and over double the ranged hp against musks. Additionally they do not take multis from artillery so erks have (roughly) 6x the effective hp against standard artillery, 2x the hp against rockets, 4x vs bombards

Erks are 6 speed, mace are 4.5 speed

The only actual advantage of mace is the train time (and at demolishing strelets cost effectively)

Erks dps down every unit with nearly the same dps as mace do to heavy infantry, while largely shrugging off artillery, and demolishing heavy cav. If anyone tells you not to use erks or the erk range card, they're a disgusting liar or delusional. Just watch out for longbows

Im pretty sure cannon get bonuses vs ERK

[dansil92]

They absolutely certainly 100% do not have the infantry tag and certainly are not countered by artillery

[howlingwolfpaw]

is that for EP? because otherwise they would be a hard counter to artilelry but they still die to it pretty good.

[dansil92]

is that for EP? because otherwise they would be a hard counter to artilelry but they still die to it pretty good.

Erks have always ignored artillery multis on all patches, they just die because they're squishy and dont have a multi against artillery (which really needs to be changed to 2x at least like all other ranged cav). A direct volley from 2 falcs will drop a base stat erk so it can feel like they're vulnerable, but its just raw damage, no multis

[howlingwolfpaw]

is that for EP? because otherwise they would be a hard counter to artilelry but they still die to it pretty good.

Erks have always ignored artillery multis on all patches, they just die because they're squishy and dont have a multi against artillery (which really needs to be changed to 2x at least like all other ranged cav). A direct volley from 2 falcs will drop a base stat erk so it can feel like they're vulnerable, but its just raw damage, no multis

I think if they had multipliers they would be too OP, a dragoon, does approx 50x 2, at 2 pop. a ERK can get up to 42 but attacks 2x as fast. So if you had 2 ERK they should do much better vs them. adding a multiplier to that would be extreme, for already the best single pop unit in the game.

[dansil92]

is that for EP? because otherwise they would be a hard counter to artilelry but they still die to it pretty good.

Erks have always ignored artillery multis on all patches, they just die because they're squishy and dont have a multi against artillery (which really needs to be changed to 2x at least like all other ranged cav). A direct volley from 2 falcs will drop a base stat erk so it can feel like they're vulnerable, but its just raw damage, no multis

I think if they had multipliers they would be too OP, a dragoon, does approx 50x 2, at 2 pop. a ERK can get up to 42 but attacks 2x as fast. So if you had 2 ERK they should do much better vs them. adding a multiplier to that would be extreme, for already the best single pop unit in the game.

I don't think it would be good on treaty patch but for sup i think it would be a good thing, since 2 falcs is such a trump card against azzy. Just my 2 cents tho

[Hazza54321]

Erk should most certainly not have a multiplier vs cannons

[howlingwolfpaw]

azzy can deal with cannons, thats what arrow knights are for, and to a lesser extent coyoterunners, otherwise they become completely useless, and ERK becomes totally broken. they are at least worth their cost.

[SquidTheSid]

azzy can deal with cannons, thats what arrow knights are for, and to a lesser extent coyoterunners, otherwise they become completely useless, and ERK becomes totally broken. they are at least worth their cost.

Good joke.

Arrow Knights have a base damage of 10 with a 5x multiplier. So they deal 50 damage a shot...except that it's ranged damage and most cannons ignore 75% of it. So in reality, they deal 12.5 damage a shot...against units with 200 HP. So if you had 10 arrow knights, it would take 2 full volleys to kill a falconet. An even then, a falc can one shot an arrow knight (100 base * 3x infantry multiplier * 0.5 AK multiplier). That's not even including heavy cannons, which Arrow Knights tickle.

Really, what they need the most are three-fold:
1). More HP. 160 is the breakpoint they need to survive a falc shot.
2). Higher artillery multiplier. With 10 base damage, it's not enough. Something like 8x would actually make them a threat toward a falconet, as 10 AKs could one shot those. Or it'd take 5 arrow knights 2 volleys (which is quicker than most cannons can fire).
3). More speed. This one isn't essential, but dear god are they slow, which hurts their utility as mobile anti-artillery. I think buffing it to 4 would put it in line with the rest of Azzy's army without breaking the unit.

I'd say with those changes, they'd justify their price and population cost, because they could at least reasonably do their job of countering artillery. As it is, you need a massive amount of them, which drains up your military space.

[Kawapasaka]

The unit sort of needs to be shit for its cost since it breaks the counter system by not dying to culvs.

[SquidTheSid]

Yes, they die to cannons instead. Remember, though cannons have a 50% penalty vs arrow knights, AKs are still infantry, so all cannons with infantry multipliers (Heavy Cannon, Falconet, Horse Artillery, etc.) have a net 1.5x damage multiplier vs them.

And given that Arrow Knights have 150 HP, they will get one shot by falcs. Hell, even in industrial age, AKs only get 25% more HP, so Falcs still oneshot them, as Field Guns give 25% damage (187.5 HP and 187.5 siege damage). Yes, I'm aware that AKs get combat cards, but so do the Europeans to make their cannons better.

And given your line of logic, should we make all units that break the counter system awful? Should Rattan Shields be shit since they're effectively cav that isn't countered by dragoons?

I think we should fix an underwhelming unit that fails to do its primary job (anti-artillery). Aztec is already weak enough to artillery as is, and combined with their inability to clear skirm masses, they seriously struggle in many matchups due to their unbalanced unit roster (4 anti-cav, 1 artillery, 1 cav, 1 skirm).

[Kawapasaka]

Rattans are restricted to shipments and native build limits and no civ lacks melee anti-cav to effectively counter them. (And in practice, their meh performance vs hand cav, lack of scaling and taking full damage from skirms means that the standard skirm-goon-cav comp isn't threatened too much by them anyway) Stat-wise the unit isn't anything special. Anyway, I've just realised this thread is in the treaty forum so I'm not gonna comment on how exactly the unit should be balanced there, just a reminder that you can't make it too good at its job since it can't be countered.

[Riotcoke]

Actually the unit is very good with upgrades on it, so yea i'd like to see them have tags.