Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

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Uzbekistan DjinnOfSorrow
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by DjinnOfSorrow »

lordraphael wrote:
DjinnOfSorrow wrote:
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And how many tps, thats always bugged me. Removes the point of scouting, well some.

1. I mean its already pretty much impossible to do some proxy strats because of how small maps are and also because theres not really any super surprising units that can be made, unlike in sc2, but add free information over decks score and tp to that and it becomes completly impossible

1. The amount of information given to the opponent makes it fairly impossible to be suprising even if their explorer never leaves the tc area. A native rush you typically can spot several minutes before hand, an otto taking the whole trade route though I'm not sure at that point you can really react but it is just a lot of free info. I mean at that point all you do not know is the exact amount of vils and if he went sea which you can figure out from the score.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'd say it's not very relevant most of the time.
However, in tourney preparation it's probably smart to check the deck's names and the deck in game because it just takes 5 sec and it can sometimes help you.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by deleted_user0 »

lordraphael wrote:
DjinnOfSorrow wrote:
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And how many tps, thats always bugged me. Removes the point of scouting, well some.

1. I mean its already pretty much impossible to do some proxy strats because of how small maps are and also because theres not really any super surprising units that can be made, unlike in sc2, but add free information over decks score and tp to that and it becomes completly impossible


yea, if you couldnt check decks and you couldnt see tp counters, then suddenly native tp rushes would become much more viable. atm you just immediately know its coming by tp + deck, so you won't fb and stuff.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

ovi12 wrote:It's hard to say because I would pay different things in different situations. I would say 100 resources would be a maximum most of the time; maybe in some extreme situations up to 200, but that would be really pushing it.

I think I would do more risky strats; whenever I pick an FI deck, I feel very insecure because I feel like the enemy can just take one look at my deck and go "ok I know what's going on", so I am hoping he just doesn't check.

200 is an outrageous cost for how little scouting information you actually get from it. Even 100 (thus one unit) is probably too much.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Gendarme »

I'd pay 2000 resources if my opponent is Aizamk.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by DjinnOfSorrow »

Gendarme wrote:I'd pay 2000 resources if my opponent is Aizamk.

Maybe, but as britts all you have to see is the tp and you know its vc and 3 vils age 1. I'll be honest I am guilty of rarely checking my opponents deck but when I do it is usually the same, all ff agenda while I plan on trapping them in age 2 and burning through their resources.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Jaeger »

momuuu wrote:
ovi12 wrote:It's hard to say because I would pay different things in different situations. I would say 100 resources would be a maximum most of the time; maybe in some extreme situations up to 200, but that would be really pushing it.

I think I would do more risky strats; whenever I pick an FI deck, I feel very insecure because I feel like the enemy can just take one look at my deck and go "ok I know what's going on", so I am hoping he just doesn't check.

200 is an outrageous cost for how little scouting information you actually get from it. Even 100 (thus one unit) is probably too much.


Well the game can be decided on one shipment, so I think it can be worth a lot to check if the opponent has that shipment. For example, you are playing against port and he has mills in his base. You know you can win the game by just poking or standing on top of his mills all the time, but to do so you've gotta go between TC's a little bit. At that point I would really want to know if he has ronin in his deck.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

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Post by deleted_user0 »

I read "Importance of seeing oppenent's dick"

is this completely healthy and normal?
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Snuden »

Attempting to put homo's in a negative light!
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by supahons »

Your subconscious just wants to tell you something ...
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by macacoalbino »

At least as is we canā€™t see the decks name :uglylol:
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

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Post by Mitoe »

I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless youā€™re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. Iā€™d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Hazza54321 »

I like the ming game with scores sometimes though
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by n0el »

Come on EP team. Remove ability to see deck and tp and native icons.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by godzillaking »

Do the resources go to the opponent?
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless youā€™re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. Iā€™d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Lukas_L99 »

momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless youā€™re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. Iā€™d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?


Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless youā€™re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. Iā€™d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?


Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.

That's a load of nonsense isn't it? It's not even an argument and it's also not correct in any case...
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Lukas_L99 »

momuuu wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
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Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.

That's a load of nonsense isn't it? It's not even an argument and it's also not correct in any case...


What? Of course itā€™s an argument to make people be less lazy and scout what the opponent is doing instead of checking it in 3 seconds when looking at the top right.
As others said, nat rushes for example would be way more viable.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

Why is it per definition good that scouting is harder? That seems like a statement that requires some logic before I'd mindlessly accept it.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Garja »

the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason

In a game where scouting is extremely hard you'd risk coin flips over skill, so your argument is not actually true.

[spoiler=spoiler]garja please dont start ruining what could be a fun discussion[/spoiler]
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by dicktator_ »

I think removing the free info would be good for strat diversity like others said. We'd see more nat rushes and FIs. Also I feel like it's possible to be decent/good even with dogshit scouting (my scouting is dogshit for example) because of all the free info and I think that shouldn't be the case in an rts game.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason

In a game where scouting is extremely hard you'd risk coin flips over skill, so your argument is not actually true.

[spoiler=spoiler]garja please dont start ruining what could be a fun discussion[/spoiler]

Yes there is that risk, see sc2 proxy stuff that can be fatal if not scouted. Point is in sc2 you can expect that stuff, maps are static, workers are relatively strong defenders, you can use static defense, etc. In AOE3 if you can't scout a rush you only have TC and mm, vills don't do much and outposts are not rly an option if you're already under pressure. Also, if you don't have an idea of what opponent has on the field (no score) you can very well lose your army and that's insta gg in AOE3. You just need some info. I'm sure there are other examples.

I read the spoiler, I'm not gonna comment on that :dry:
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

I seriously wonder what mechanics aoe3 has in place to make scouting actually skillful and interesting rather than a coin flip mechanic. Scouting for trading posts is boring because you either get lucky seeing one or you waste time and miss scouting the base. Seeing a deck means you know whether or not someone is doing something crazy or going for water. Those things can easily be missed by simply bad luck and lose you the game. Seeing the score hardly gives information at all, although it might guide you a bit in chaotic situations.

Aoe3 hardly has any mechanics in place to make scouting possible. Any army movement is relatively all in due to the snaring and otherwise there is basically no way to get intel properly. In sc2 they introduced reasonably afforable scouting tools that you can invest in (overlords/zergling scouts, adepts/observers and scans) and even there rock-paper-scizor match ups happen a lot. Is introducing a mechanic that basically brings build order losses and luck to the game a good mechanic? Yes it introduces a new skill too, but is aoe3 capable of making that skill fun? I honestly doubt it.

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