Isn't Japan lame?

[JakeyBoyTH]

Yeah, Spanish musks are not a comparison

they are the most powerful musk unit tho.

So according to this logic they take a lot more population space, as you need to have missionaries around them at the same time.

@_RDX_, attack is not everything. Ashigarus also cost more than regular musketeers, though it makes them very pop-efficient
Iroquois War Chief has an aura, too, but I'd agree, I don't really like the design of such units, like I said. Nevertheless, there are units that are more of pain in the neck in the game, in my humble opinion.

thats like saying cossacks are better than gendarmes.

[Forjustice]

Japan is lame on RE.definitely.

[pecelot]

That's what you get for taking only the population-space efficiency into account, @JakeyBoyTH

[JakeyBoyTH]

That's what you get for taking only the population-space efficiency into account, @JakeyBoyTH

well then arent highlanders much better than ashigaru anyway even at 2 pop?

[Forjustice]

well,as a matter of fact,japan get the higher advanced on sustainalbe economic growth,they dont really rely or depend on map,And as we know,for most RE map,they are suck.

[_H2O]

Just wanted to jump in with two comments.

Japan is great on QS if you are a PR 35ish player. You don't lose to anyone worse than you for map. And you know how to beat some of the bad strata vs Japan.

Japan is strongest in the PR 26-32 range imo. The techniques that get consistent wins vs them can require more patience and execution than players are willing to put in.

Notice I said willing. I think many of these people are capable of beating it but for some reason people have very simple stubborn views on Japan.

[sebnan12]

well if u see a japan player on hispaniola with a full water deck :/ ... dunno if u guys like to play vs that.. i certainly dont

[Zhanson10]

waiting for @Zhanson10 's insight on this

My insight is that his grammars sucks and I could do a better write up on why japan is top tier civ

[greatscythe11]

Are there any recordings available of games where another civ has beaten Japan in late game?There are probably strategies for beating Japan in early or midgame but not enough for the late game it seems. The only games that come to mind are Princeofkabul(Germany) vs Nagayumi(Japan) game in Kamchatka and H2O (India) vs Kynesie(Japan) in Silk Road.I just feel that if there were more viable strats to beat Japan in late game, the perspective could've been different.A turtling Japan in the hands of a skilled player can force a late game despite the best efforts from the other guy.

[born2believe]

waiting for @Zhanson10 's insight on this

My insight is that his grammars sucks and I could do a better write up on why japan is top tier civ

Please do.

[JakeyBoyTH]

Are there any recordings available of games where another civ has beaten Japan in late game?There are probably strategies for beating Japan in early or midgame but not enough for the late game it seems. The only games that come to mind are Princeofkabul(Germany) vs Nagayumi(Japan) game in Kamchatka and H2O (India) vs Kynesie(Japan) in Silk Road.I just feel that if there were more viable strats to beat Japan in late game, the perspective could've been different.A turtling Japan in the hands of a skilled player can force a late game despite the best efforts from the other guy.

France can still give a good spanking to Japan. Really if you have decent artillery game and nice HC mixed it, it shouldn't be too hard.

[_H2O]

Me vs diarouga France vs Japan on Siberia
Me vs kingofosmsane France vs Japan on Kamchatka. Both are good Japan maps. There are other civs, I just went through a phase where I liked that matchup a lot.

[Hazza54321]

Its a good match up for france i think

[greatscythe11]

Me vs diarouga France vs Japan on Siberia
Me vs kingofosmsane France vs Japan on Kamchatka. Both are good Japan maps. There are other civs, I just went through a phase where I liked that matchup a lot.

Anything more like that Kynesie game?With other civs like Germany or Port?These were really good games but it just feels like the midgame was the dominant factor(double TP ff iirc)Also walling seemed like a smaller part unlike the Kynesie game.As a student of the game it will be really useful to know what's the right approach if you know the midgame will result in a stalemate or has already.

[pecelot]

well if u see a japan player on hispaniola with a full water deck :/ ... dunno if u guys like to play vs that.. i certainly dont

Well, at least they can't shrine the turkeys on RE

waiting for @Zhanson10 's insight on this

My insight is that his grammars sucks and I could do a better write up on why japan is top tier civ

woow, you're so OP, I wish I had known someone who knows his mother language's grammar so perfectly before!!

France can still give a good spanking to Japan. Really if you have decent artillery game and nice HC mixed it, it shouldn't be too hard.

Their ease to pull of amazing stuff after the initial stages is incredible — in my opinion it's mostly due to their deck structure. They have less resource and units cards in general as they can send the same ones twice, leaving them a lot of space for valuable upgrades, which scale amazingly with all bonuses they have to offer. Other civ are not able to allow themselves for that. Think about France: it's supposed to be stronger than Japan in late game, but the former is very mediocre with no home-city shipments essential for these stages — which you, naturally, won't find in regular 1v1 decks.

[_H2O]

Me vs diarouga France vs Japan on Siberia
Me vs kingofosmsane France vs Japan on Kamchatka. Both are good Japan maps. There are other civs, I just went through a phase where I liked that matchup a lot.

Anything more like that Kynesie game?With other civs like Germany or Port?These were really good games but it just feels like the midgame was the dominant factor(double TP ff iirc)Also walling seemed like a smaller part unlike the Kynesie game.As a student of the game it will be really useful to know what's the right approach if you know the midgame will result in a stalemate or has already.

I'm sure there were some from my Spain steaming times. I beat kynesie off stream on Carolina using unction Spain in age 4/5.

India I have beaten people like TLS in quick search using howdah ffs with only elephants and urumi. So again, late game Japan isn't some magic win condition.

Kynesie types are beating people because they wall and force you to play their game. The long eco control game.

Then the player sends horrible shipments like 5 hussar into 5 layers of walls instead of sending refrigeration and booming.

The mid game is key, but you'll notice I don't over commit. I control the map while booming. I make as little army as I can to accomplish this and ride the 2 falcs and 10 pikes to put him on a shorter clock. That clock is the time he has before he needs to move out. If you can contain and shorten the clock then Japan has to push into a losing situation to get resources. That's what happened in both the osmane and diarouga game.

If someone in the community knows of links to any games I don't have them handy.

Mitoe might have German games. I don't like playing German.

[sebnan12]

u already lost if japan puts u in an eco style game except ur h2o..or if its not sea

[_H2O]

u already lost if japan puts u in an eco style game except ur h2o..or if its not sea

This backs up what I said. People have very polarized views. You too can slow roll someone with falcs, but you need some patience and to be open to a different approach.

Japan hasn't been top tier and unstoppable in late game since they got nerfed 9 years ago.

[fei123456]

I'm sure there were some from my Spain steaming times. I beat kynesie off stream on Carolina using unction Spain in age 4/5.

India I have beaten people like TLS in quick search using howdah ffs with only elephants and urumi. So again, late game Japan isn't some magic win condition.

Kynesie types are beating people because they wall and force you to play their game. The long eco control game.

Then the player sends horrible shipments like 5 hussar into 5 layers of walls instead of sending refrigeration and booming.

The mid game is key, but you'll notice I don't over commit. I control the map while booming. I make as little army as I can to accomplish this and ride the 2 falcs and 10 pikes to put him on a shorter clock. That clock is the time he has before he needs to move out. If you can contain and shorten the clock then Japan has to push into a losing situation to get resources. That's what happened in both the osmane and diarouga game.

If someone in the community knows of links to any games I don't have them handy.

Mitoe might have German games. I don't like playing German.

But you know japan have insane monitor laming/age 4 shogunate bug in RE. If I send shipments like refrigeration he just go age 4, and can have 100+ pop insane age 4 army in 5 minutes, or kill everything with 2 monitors

[_H2O]

Thats not my experience!

[pecelot]

You can have monitors, too!

[sebnan12]

u already lost if japan puts u in an eco style game except ur h2o..or if its not sea

This backs up what I said. People have very polarized views. You too can slow roll someone with falcs, but you need some patience and to be open to a different approach.

Japan hasn't been top tier and unstoppable in late game since they got nerfed 9 years ago.

so basically i 100% agree with u.. except theres even a tiny bit of usable sea on the map which changes the outcome completly cuz japan abusing warships is completly bs

[Gendarme]

Here are the mentioned games:

ESOC Winter Tournament 2016 Semifinals: _H2O vs Diarouga (France vs Japan game @ 34:53)
Saturday Smackdown: _H2O vs KINGofOsmane (France vs Japan game @ 22:52)

[pecelot]

so basically i 100% agree with u.. except theres even a tiny bit of usable sea on the map which changes the outcome completly cuz japan abusing warships is completly bs

What's so different from standard European fleet then on a map like, let's say, Great Lakes?

[blackwidow]

Japan is strongest in the PR 26-32 range imo. The techniques that get consistent wins vs them can require more patience and execution than players are willing to put in.

Notice I said willing. I think many of these people are capable of beating it but for some reason people have very simple stubborn views on Japan.

Can confirm both of these statements, am PR 31 100% japan player, people don't put the effort in to counter me properly. And people flame me 50% of the games for playing Japan.

Also, and I hate to say this cuz I suck vs this style: Go for a cannon timing, god the times I got shrekked by that. Think that's a good counter to Japan, do a pike semi ff, follow it up with a cannon timing (works with most eu civs).